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Making Sense of OT Law

 
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angw8
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 7:05 pm    Post subject: Making Sense of OT Law Reply with quote

I found this originally on the this forum in Just for Chat , pasted it and saved it . Decided it is too thought provoking not to have up here again...


Does the day we worship on matter ? Wasn't the law done away with and a new system of salvation by faith put in place?

My family have been blessed by a day of rest. We don't look at the school books (the children like that), we stop our daily routine of work, and lay aside the common chores and devote the day to spiritual nourishment. We talk, pray, study the Bible, walk or drive in nature, visit with other like-minded people, and sometimes visit neighbors, take gifts to people etc. We don't consider "keeping the Sabbath" legalistic, but vital to strengthen our walk, and faith in Christ.

Saved Jews in the Old Testament were saved by faith.
No Jew in the old testament was saved by works. Ro 3:20 “Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin. Hebrews 11 speaks of the faith of Samuel, David, Moses, Jacob, Isaac, etc. and Romans 4:3 says of Abraham the father of the Jewish nation, “... Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.” All of these people kept Saturday as Sabbath. So, it seems to me that keeping Saturday or Sunday is not what determines if someone is trying to earn their salvation or not, instead, the issue has to do with motives. Should we say that someone is trying to be saved by works because they honor their father and mother, keeping the fifth commandment? Of course not. Then why should we say when someone keeps the 4th commandment as it is written, on Saturday, they are trying to earn salvation by works?

Levitical laws
Concerning the levitical laws, it is obvious that not all the laws in Leviticus are in the same category. Some are still to be kept and others are not.

Safety and human relations
Some of the laws are dealing with safety and our relations with one another. They are an expansion of the ten commandments. For example: Having railings around our rooftops, and taking responsibility for our animals behavior. If our cow hurts someone, or someone else's animal. These principles still stand today, just the application of them may vary according to circumstances.

Civil laws
Other laws are purely civil, having to do with the governing of a civil government. Today God's church is international, and these laws obviously don't apply.

Laws of Health and Hygiene
Other laws have to do with hygiene and health. These principles still apply today, and only the application of them varies depending on circumstances.

Shadows of things to come (days, months, times, and years)
Still another class of laws are those established to teach the people about the different events in the plan of Redemption. The Passover is a good example. It illustrated the sacrifice of Christ, and not only that, but the exact date when that would take place. (Christ died on the Passover) These shadows of things to come were instituted because of sin, and revealed the plan to deal with sin. These are what Colossians 2:14-17 (“...nailed to the cross...”) is speaking of, as well as Galations 4:9-11

Moral Law – the standard of Righteousness.
It is still binding
The moral law, the ten commandments is the very standard of Righteousness, and God's character ("the law is holy just and good." Rom 7:12). It existed before sin. There was never a time when it was ok for man to kill, steal, take God's name in vain etc. So it is only obvious that this law is still binding on Christians today. Even Paul, a champion of Righteousness by faith, said “Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.” (Ro 3:31)

Sabbath existed before any Jew, it was created at the creation of the world
But there is one more thing. The Sabbath commandment says “remember”. It was something they already knew. When did it come into existence? The commandment goes on to say, “for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth...” God points to the origin of the Sabbath as being at creation. Before there was sin, or the need for a Saviour. It had nothing to do with working to be saved, for man was not lost yet. Genesis 2 speaks of the Sabbath. It was a day of the week, created specifically for rest in God.

Saturday was the day Christ Rested after Creating the World
What is this rest? Genesis 2:2, 3 says “And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.” (Ge 2:2-3)

Saturday, the 7th day Sabbath is the Lord's day, in honor of His Creative Power
This rest day was not because God was tired. Rather, it was blessed and set up as a memorial of Creation. It commemorated Christ's creative power (for God created all things by Christ). It was Christ's day, the “Lord's day”. And it was the day Christ rested in the tomb after accomplishing the work on earth for our salvation. It would not be appropriate to celebrate American independence day on any other day than the fourth of July, because we can not change the day significant things happened in our history. Neither can we change the day Christ rested from creating this world. And there is not one scripture that authorizes a change in the Sabbath. I would not expect the president to drop his activities to meet my convenience to meet with me. I would expect to re-arrange my schedule around his. How much more ought we to meet God's schedule?

Sabbath is about Resting from our Works
The Sabbath is all about resting from our own works, chores, activities and and spending time with our creator, thus allowing him to recreate us, transforming our minds into His image.
How anyone can get righteousness by works from this is difficult for me to see.
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Embassy
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 10:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Making Sense of OT Law Reply with quote

angw8 wrote:
I found this originally on the this forum in Just for Chat , pasted it and saved it . Decided it is too thought provoking not to have up here again...


Does the day we worship on matter ?


No, why would it?

angw8 wrote:

Wasn't the law done away with and a new system of salvation by faith put in place?


Salvation by grace through faith. Big difference between salvation by faith and salvation by grace through faith.


angw8 wrote:

No Jew in the old testament was saved by works. Ro 3:20 “Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin. Hebrews 11 speaks of the faith of Samuel, David, Moses, Jacob, Isaac, etc. and Romans 4:3 says of Abraham the father of the Jewish nation, “... Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.” All of these people kept Saturday as Sabbath.


Where do you find that in the Bible? The Sabbath does not appear in the Bible until Exodus 16 which is after Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. I don't think Muslims would appreciate Abraham being called the father of the Jewish nation. I would think Israel would be the father of the Jewish nations.


angw8 wrote:

Concerning the levitical laws, it is obvious that not all the laws in Leviticus are in the same category. Some are still to be kept and others are not.


They are all in the same category - the law. The law is a unit - James 2 "10For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it." By what standard do you determine which ones you keep and which ones you don't?

angw8 wrote:

Some of the laws are dealing with safety and our relations with one another. They are an expansion of the ten commandments. For example: Having railings around our rooftops, and taking responsibility for our animals behavior. If our cow hurts someone, or someone else's animal. These principles still stand today, just the application of them may vary according to circumstances.


And how do these trump the commands in the new covenant? Why do you need these when you have the command to agape love one another?

angw8 wrote:

Other laws are purely civil, having to do with the governing of a civil government. Today God's church is international, and these laws obviously don't apply.


The law was given to a theocracy. What Biblical standard to you use to determine that part of the law doesn't apply to you and part does? Saying the church is international doesn't negate the commands in the law unless the Bible says otherwise.

angw8 wrote:

Other laws have to do with hygiene and health. These principles still apply today, and only the application of them varies depending on circumstances.


Who determines the subjective picking and choosing of laws? By what standard do you determine that the law could be broken into parts and picked from?

In Matthew 5 Jesus said that not one jot or tittle would pass from the law until all was fulfilled. According to Jesus the whole law stands together.

angw8 wrote:

(days, months, times, and years)
Still another class of laws are those established to teach the people about the different events in the plan of Redemption. The Passover is a good example. It illustrated the sacrifice of Christ, and not only that, but the exact date when that would take place. (Christ died on the Passover) These shadows of things to come were instituted because of sin, and revealed the plan to deal with sin. These are what Colossians 2:14-17 (“...nailed to the cross...”) is speaking of, as well as Galations 4:9-11


Don't forget the old covenant Sabbath foreshadowing of the rest of salvation. Sabbath foreshadowed resting in the grace of God for your salvation and not looking to your works to have any impact on your salvation.


angw8 wrote:

[ It is still binding
The moral law, the ten commandments is the very standard of Righteousness, and God's character ("the law is holy just and good." Rom 7:12). It existed before sin. There was never a time when it was ok for man to kill, steal, take God's name in vain etc. So it is only obvious that this law is still binding on Christians today. Even Paul, a champion of Righteousness by faith, said “Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.” (Ro 3:31)


How do you detemine Biblically that the 10 commandment law is the standard of righteousness? Jesus quoted the greatest commands of the law and they were not found in the 10 commandments. We are given a command to agape love one another in the new covenant. Are you saying the highest standard is to refrain from killing someone or from committing adultery?

The Bible says in Romans 5 "13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.....20The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

angw8 wrote:

Sabbath existed before any Jew, it was created at the creation of the world


Sabbath does not appear until Exodus 16. In Genesis
God rested - ceased from His work of creating. He didn't resume creating the world.

angw8 wrote:

But there is one more thing. The Sabbath commandment says “remember”. It was something they already knew. When did it come into existence? The commandment goes on to say, “for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth...” God points to the origin of the Sabbath as being at creation. Before there was sin, or the need for a Saviour. It had nothing to do with working to be saved, for man was not lost yet. Genesis 2 speaks of the Sabbath. It was a day of the week, created specifically for rest in God.


The word "remember" doesn't necessitate a Sabbath command at creation. There was no Sabbath command at creation. The Bible says that the Sabbath was made known to the Israelites. Remembering what they were instructed in Exodus 16 is likely. Remembering weekly is likely too.


angw8 wrote:

What is this rest? Genesis 2:2, 3 says “And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.” (Ge 2:2-3)

Where is the Sabbath command here? Where do we see Adam and Eve resting here?

angw8 wrote:

This rest day was not because God was tired. Rather, it was blessed and set up as a memorial of Creation. It commemorated Christ's creative power (for God created all things by Christ). It was Christ's day, the “Lord's day”. And it was the day Christ rested in the tomb after accomplishing the work on earth for our salvation. It would not be appropriate to celebrate American independence day on any other day than the fourth of July, because we can not change the day significant things happened in our history. Neither can we change the day Christ rested from creating this world. And there is not one scripture that authorizes a change in the Sabbath. I would not expect the president to drop his activities to meet my convenience to meet with me. I would expect to re-arrange my schedule around his. How much more ought we to meet God's schedule?


Deut 5 says "Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the LORD your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the LORD your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day." This is part of the 10 commandments listed in Deut 5. The connection must be made to the deliverance of the Israelites as well as creation.

You can't change salvation, but you can look to Romans 14 "One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord."


If you look at Hebrews you will see that with a change in the priesthood it necessitates a change in the law. In Hebrews 4 you will find that the Sabbath is today. In 2 Corinthians 3 you will see that the 10 commandments have come to have no glory at all because of the ministry of the Spirit.

angw8 wrote:

Sabbath is about Resting from our Works
The Sabbath is all about resting from our own works, chores, activities and and spending time with our creator, thus allowing him to recreate us, transforming our minds into His image.
How anyone can get righteousness by works from this is difficult for me to see.


Let me ask you this...why did you feel the need to share this message? Do you think not keeping the seventh-day Sabbath is a sin? What happens if I live until the end of the world and never keep the Sabbath?
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4given
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Excellent points, Embassy!
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, "Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work", so there's obviously supposed to be one day of rest. It was originally the seventh day, or Saturday, but was changed to Sunday to commemorate Jesus's resurrection. Is this the correct day to be using? Well, it's tradition, and I think the best choice for Christians - certainly better than picking a day at random. The Jewish religion is more OT and chooses the original day.
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angw8
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jesus said something relevant to this in Mark 7:9
"And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition."
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 5:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps this will be contrary to the traditions you wish to hold, but...

While Jesus was in the flesh he was under the law (refer the scripture in Mark that you shared, Ang). Once He shed his blood, once and for all... the curse of the law was nailed to the Cross. It is entirely up to you if you choose to observe the law. However, you are negating the sacrifice of God's only begotten.

I am not doubting that some of the law is beneficial to this day, but if you do not follow it to a T (there are hundreds of commandments, not just 10), you are 100% guilty. I would much prefer to receive the benefits given to me by the Spotless Lamb. I am saved by grace through faith.
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