Banned Books Week

Anything having to do with religion or religious debate goes here.

Moderators: Theodore, elliemaejune

User avatar
Theodore
Moderator
Posts: 2115
Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2005 4:14 pm
Location: Missouri, US
Contact:

Postby Theodore » Sat Sep 22, 2007 3:32 am

Like I said, it's an issue of libraries being partially taxpayer-funded. If a private library wants to open and stock this stuff, I won't object, but I strongly object to having my tax money go to help pay for sex, violence, etc. themed children's books to be bought and/or displayed. If they're using my money, then I should have a say, though it should take a large majority opinion to actually get a book banned. A few percent of people objecting to Harry Potter is a lot different from 90%+ of people objecting to some of the books on that list.

StellarStory
User
Posts: 472
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 6:07 pm

Postby StellarStory » Sat Sep 22, 2007 5:51 am

I think people write what speaks to them, what is in their souls and sometimes, what is commercially viable. When I write, it has to have meaning to me. It's an art. Some do write as journeymen to what sells though.

Lily
User
Posts: 425
Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2007 5:51 am

Postby Lily » Sat Sep 22, 2007 7:25 am

"The greatest sign of success for a teacher... is to be able to say, "The children are now working as if I did not exist."
- M. Montessori
Proud non-member of the HSLDA

Ramona
User
Posts: 418
Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2006 11:16 am

Postby Ramona » Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:25 pm

When my kids were teeny, they picked out a library book to look at the pictures and have us read to them. They liked the brightly-colored pictures of children.

As I read it through at home, I was horrified. It was about a school class who had a sub and how horrible the sub was and how the kids all cooperated to be disrespectful to her, and how they hated a few of their classmates for not fitting in and the rest of them cooperated to bully those kids. The pictures tended to be of elementary school kids being totally out of control, spitting, making awful faces, doing disgusting things, etc.

I decided we were never bringing a library book home again unless I'd looked through it at the library and okayed it.

DH went to a workshop at a homeschooling convention a couple of years later where a mom said everything written for children after 1965 is vile. That sounded about right to me. It was around then that the movement began to make kids' books look "like reality" instead of being idealistic.

I prefer my kids to have good ideals held up before them.

Not to say that everything written before '65 is acceptable. I love the movie African Queen, but I didn't read the book aloud to the kids--not up to our family standards. More graphic than the old movie.

Also, I had to disapprove most everything written before 1990 for children to educate them about Native Americans because the older books were full of prejudice and biased language.

Those are just two examples.

I refrained from reading any Harry Potter for years because I assumed it would be too "realistic" and not "idealistic" enough for me. It is, but I've allowed my kids to read it anyway. The magic and stuff doesn't bother me a bit--that's just like Grimms' and Perault's and everyone else's old fairy tales, which we've read to the kids all their lives. But the way teenagers treat each other and adults in that series is a bit too "modern" for my tastes. However, as my kids have gotten older and gone out of our house more, they know real teenagers and they know what our family standards are, so reading about kids like the ones they meet in public isn't going to start them acting that way themselves.

I also read Huck Finn and the Nate Hentoff book about it being banned to the kids, and we've discussed reading choices quite a bit.

Ramona

User avatar
seekingmyLord
User
Posts: 231
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2007 4:44 am
Location: Standing in the radiance of His glory.

Postby seekingmyLord » Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:25 pm

Last edited by seekingmyLord on Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Theodore
Moderator
Posts: 2115
Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2005 4:14 pm
Location: Missouri, US
Contact:

Postby Theodore » Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:42 pm

You're forgetting that most of those are for adults. I wouldn't recommend showing The Passion to young children either. My objection is not so much to crud per se (though I may find it personally objectionable), but rather putting it into a format that's meant to appeal to kids. There is zero benefit to exposing children to sex and violence for the purposes of promoting same, and I don't really care whether a handful of people request those books, the library shouldn't order them. A line obviously has to be drawn somewhere, and the issue is not really the line, but rather where to draw it.

FYI...
http://www.creationists.org/corporalpunishment.html

A light spanking is way less damaging to a child imho than either psychological punishment (silent treatment, for instance) or no punishment at all (child turns into an uncontrollable snot with no respect for you or anyone). It provides the best results with the least suffering. I know I probably won't agree with you on this, but I personally feel that people who don't use corporal punishment are causing their children serious long-term harm.

The brother of one of our friends was killed when he went motorcycle riding against his mom's express orders. If he'd had slightly more respect for his parents, he'd still be alive.

There is, as seekingmyLord says, a huge difference between a spanking and a random beating. One trains, the other makes things worse.
Last edited by Theodore on Sun Sep 23, 2007 6:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

Lily
User
Posts: 425
Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2007 5:51 am

Postby Lily » Sat Sep 22, 2007 1:44 pm

"The greatest sign of success for a teacher... is to be able to say, "The children are now working as if I did not exist."

- M. Montessori

Proud non-member of the HSLDA

User avatar
seekingmyLord
User
Posts: 231
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2007 4:44 am
Location: Standing in the radiance of His glory.

Postby seekingmyLord » Sat Sep 22, 2007 5:17 pm

Okay, Lily. I have seen and heard all sorts of ideas on parenting, including ones just like this. I have been a youth group leader in three different churches for several years before I had my own child quite late in life, so I have seen in the short term and long term results of those different parenting methods. From what I have observed, there is a reason that certain parenting methods have withstood the test of time. (My husband even taught a class on Parenting were parents were often court ordered to attend.)

So, it is no surprise to me that whenever someone comes up with a new methodology about how to raise children, he/she always use a study for the one he/she is against. However, all it does for me is set up the question:

Where is the 62 years of collected data proving the new method?

Let's think about this from the other side. How should I view God since He gave me to parents who were abusive? Should I view Him as not loving me, or not having any respect for me? I mean, I certainly did not learn that from my parents, so should I have no respect for Him? Certainly He knew I would be abused, right? So, if a spanking ruins a child, then according to a study out there somewhere I must be really "damaged goods" and have no business raising a child because I most likely will abuse her or at least have temper issues, right? Do you see where this is going? If every parent who was spanked have al these issues then mankind is doomed. Bear with me, studies and statistics can be set up to prove anything a person wants to be proven.

But, there is a deeper issue, Lily. If you consider all spanking as "beating" children, you are discrediting those suffered REAL child abuse. You are basically saying not only is spanking dishonoring the Lord, but that what abused children received is no worse than a spanking...? I cannot even tell you how hurtful this line of thinking would be to a child who has been abused and has not yet healed emotionally from it.

Lily
User
Posts: 425
Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2007 5:51 am

Postby Lily » Sat Sep 22, 2007 5:44 pm

"The greatest sign of success for a teacher... is to be able to say, "The children are now working as if I did not exist."

- M. Montessori

Proud non-member of the HSLDA

StellarStory
User
Posts: 472
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 6:07 pm

Postby StellarStory » Sat Sep 22, 2007 9:36 pm


User avatar
seekingmyLord
User
Posts: 231
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2007 4:44 am
Location: Standing in the radiance of His glory.

Postby seekingmyLord » Sun Sep 23, 2007 5:48 am


User avatar
Theodore
Moderator
Posts: 2115
Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2005 4:14 pm
Location: Missouri, US
Contact:

Postby Theodore » Sun Sep 23, 2007 6:56 am


Lily
User
Posts: 425
Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2007 5:51 am

Postby Lily » Sun Sep 23, 2007 8:42 am

Last edited by Lily on Sun Sep 23, 2007 11:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
"The greatest sign of success for a teacher... is to be able to say, "The children are now working as if I did not exist."

- M. Montessori

Proud non-member of the HSLDA

StellarStory
User
Posts: 472
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 6:07 pm

Postby StellarStory » Sun Sep 23, 2007 10:29 am

I've read many times that spanking and such is alright. Indeed I've seen people say it is called for or required for good parenting. "It was done to me, and it straightened me out." "It didn't hurt me none, in fact they shoulda hit me more." are some things I sometimes hear about this. I don't agree.

I don't favor punishment at all. I'm not trying to control my kids, I'm trying to get them to control themselves. I favor consequences. I favor rewards on the one hand along with positive reenforcement (which none of us get enough of IMO) and consequences, (preferably natural ones) on the other hand.

This has worked very well for my kids. They are great, and very well behaved. They are not that way because they fear me but because they know right from wrong due to having consequences for their actions that were either good or bad and which were consistent. Later in life, when I'm not there, they will make better choices than if I "ruled" them through fear and pain.

Corporeal punishment never stopped me from doing anything I wanted past the time of the actual punishment. I remember being spanked and thinking is this it? This won't stop me. I'll go right back to doing what I want to do, only this time they won't catch me. Is that really what you are seeking to create? It's NOT what I am.

When ultra controlled and punished kids get out on their own they are likely to do or try anything because you can't beat who they are inside out of them. You can only get them to suppress it until they have opportunity. This is one reason why college kids who go away to college often go "wild." That can lead to some heartbreaking results including death.

When they get a car, that too can lead to a sort of freedom along with not being watched in which bad choices can be made leading to injury and death.

I've seen people say that you should never spank in anger but calmly. I don't agree.

The only time one should get physical is when one has lost their temper IMO. If you can be calm it should NOT occur at all because you are the adult and you should be able to discern right from wrong. Hitting another person in any way but self defense is wrong in my belief system. The whole being calm and saying you are doing this from a loving place is total BS to me. Again, it makes me angry.

Of course people are going to do what they are going to do. I am not likely to be changing minds here. I know that.

I also know kids are spanked and beaten (yes, I make a distinction between the two) every day, and they have to figure out how to grow up as healthy as they can in spite of it.

Human beings have a remarkable ability to adapt and work for good. I believe most of us, freed of worries such as hunger and shelter will make the right choices. I also believe that kids given, "everything" except consistent enforced limits, are less likely to make the right choices.

Still, it is on each individual to make these choices right or wrong, they and the rest of us have to live with the results.

User avatar
Theodore
Moderator
Posts: 2115
Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2005 4:14 pm
Location: Missouri, US
Contact:

Postby Theodore » Sun Sep 23, 2007 11:16 am



Return to “Religious Discussion / Topics”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests