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Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 2:34 pm
I think this got way off subject but I am going to put in my opinion anyway.
So in your opinion, it's ok to just be, your object is not to improve yourself as much as possible? What do you think would happen if everyone in the US thought that way? Our economy would collapse in two seconds and we'd be conquered by China or Russia.
First our economy is collapsing. Maybe not fast but we are headed for another depression. Lots of people can't even put gas in their cars or afford fresh foods unless they work two jobs. And why is this? Because everyone in the US thinks they need to super educated and then should make a lot of money. In turn because everyone wants so much money our factories go overseas where they can get cheaper labor. Then all these people who make lots of money or work two smaller jobs to make it, make the cost of everything go up (because the numbers are based on 2 incomes or 1 big salary) so people who are working those unskilled jobs can't afford the necessities and now they want more money too which makes those companies look for cheaper labor too. So what did over educating the kids in the US do again. It caused them to think they deserved and needed more money and in turn caused our companies to leave for cheaper labor.
You can learn without being able to read, just like you can survive in the US without being able to speak English, but you can't be as effective. Everyone in the US needs to be able to speak, read, and write the primary language so as to be able to communcate with each other as a nation, not as a bunch of separate fragments.
Secondly, we as a country have already started to separate ourselves in two fragments. The US is eventually going to end up like Canada. Some of our states will primarily speak Spanish while others speak primarily English. Canada just happens to French and English. I personally feel like everyone in this country should be required to speak English fluently, but this country is comprised of a bunch of bleeding hearts that don't want to hurt anyones feelings so we just let them be, as long as we can step on as many English speaking citizens as we can on the way. Dividing a country weakens it and this division can be in anything, unfortunately our country is divided at several points. This has nothing to do with accountability to parents who homeschool though this goes back to the general welfare of the country. If you have read what I have said you know that I am not for bigger government but in this case if I can't understand the person next to me and he can't understand me in a time of emergency then it is just going to cause more problems and possibly cause both of us to get hurt.
So really does it matter if we teach everyone to read and write or not if our country is going to be divided on language. Until you get a central language there really isn't a debate on this subject and going on that theory then it doesn't matter if a child is taught to read because no one will know unless they speak the same language as that child; otherwise they can get an interpreter and have it read to them.
Everyone that I have offended remember this is mostly
Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 3:19 pm
Sigh... extremes, everything just has to be an extreme.
Theodore wrote:So in your opinion, it's ok to just be, your object is not to improve yourself as much as possible? What do you think would happen if everyone in the US thought that way? Our economy would collapse in two seconds and we'd be conquered by China or Russia.
I simply said it is not every one's mission in life. I did not say that it should be no one's mission in life. I, personally, believe that following God's will as my mission is far more desirable.
By the way, I know "improving oneself" is a common phrase, but have you considered how self serving it sounds? Education alone really doesn't impress me. I have known some highly educated people, who used their education to serve themselves and get praise from others.
I once watched a special on 20/20 some years ago about Christopher Michael Langan. It was speculated that he might be the smartest man in America. His IQ is around 195 and he achieved a perfect score on the SAT. This man had a very rough home life but he still learned because of this amazing gift. He was writing some sort of book, something with terminology way over my head, at the time. Guess where they found him working? He was working in a bar as a bouncer. He was doing this because he did not want to lose touch with real people and he wanted a regular life. Some people would say what a waste that he does not work in a field of science somewhere. I say, what a knowledgeable man he is and not because of his education.
I just happen to believe that education is not something to be worshipped and what makes a person have a knowledge valuable to other people does not necessarily come from books.
Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 11:19 pm
I agree, and I'm not saying that everyone needs even a high school degree to be helpful to those around them - but speaking, reading, and writing English is a basic necessity if you live in the US. And the notion of "improving oneself" is not self-serving - it's more that you want to make yourself as useful as possible for God and your country and so on. If you don't learn something that will help you do a better job just because it's a lot of work, then that's laziness, not efficiency.
Yes, I always extrapolate to extremes, but before you can advocate a plan of action, you have to think about what would happen if a lot of people went with it. You can't just say it's ok for some people and then leave it at that. What is the benefit of not being able to speak, read, and write English or do at least basic math? There are people who've done great things with no education - but think how much more they could have done with an education.
On a personal note, I tought myself programming and web design, but I still took a course on Unix and a course on mySQL because I know it would fill in any holes I missed. Could I do well as a programmer without those courses? Yes. Could I be as effective as possible without those courses? No. You have to try to be the best you can in your area of expertise. Anything else is letting down the client. And basic English and math skills are the core to everything.
Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 1:44 am
Why not? I believe it is okay for some people and I do leave it at that. Again, lack of education, in this country, is not some unresolvable problem. If a person desires to be educated, he can be.
Theodore wrote:You can't just say it's ok for some people and then leave it at that. What is the benefit of not being able to speak, read, and write English or do at least basic math? There are people who've done great things with no education - but think how much more they could have done with an education.
I think that a person who did great things without an education would probably not have done the same things if he had been educated. Think about it. If education opens many doors of opportunity, would the person really have chosen the same path, based on those limitations, which resulted him in doing such great things?
We cannot really know what "benefit" an uneducated life might have for an individual because we don't have the advantage of God's perceptive, but I believe that the things a person accomplished for God would be the evidence of the benefit. In the Bible, didn't God often use the person that was not highly skilled or highly educated, but with just the right heart to do really great things?
Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 4:22 am
Actually, once you realize you need an education, it's often too late to get one. You pretty much have until you get married to learn, and the patterns need to be set in your brain as early as possible to get best results. Children learn languages much more easily than adults, for instance.
As for not doing the same things with an education as without - how can you say that they wouldn't have done the exact same thing, only even better? The Founding Fathers were all highly educated men, imagine if they'd only had the equivalent of a high school or grade school education, and knew relatively little about history.
Again - you can theoretically do great things without an education, but that's no excuse for not having one. You can dig a hole with a rock, but if you're doing that because you forgot or were too lazy to bring a shovel, then you're an idiot. Voluntarily skipping your education doesn't help anyone.
Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 3:49 am
Incidently, I'm not trying to attack anyone personally here. I notice the debate has gotten a little heated in places.
Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 5:35 am
If you are concerned about me, Theodore, don't be. It has been a good debate, bringing up concerns on both sides of the issues.
I simply wished to add nothing more. There is no concern that was mentioned here that I have not considered. As it stands my position is simply this: Nothing other people, claiming to homeschool, do or don't do in educating their own children is ever going to make me desire any government regulation--at all--on homeschooling.
Desiring government to enforce a standard of how parents are to educate their children, even just requiring the basics, for the good of society is not that much different than what we witnessed in Germany in recent months. Americans just use a more sentimental approach: we do it "for the children."
Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 9:48 am
I am replying to a previous question about scripture that talks about accountability and community. Here are a few:
9 Two are better than one,
because they have a good return for their work:
10 If one falls down,
his friend can help him up.
But pity the man who falls
and has no one to help him up!
11 Also, if two lie down together, they will keep warm.
But how can one keep warm alone?
12 Though one may be overpowered,
two can defend themselves.
A cord of three strands is not quickly broken.
14I myself am convinced, my brothers, that you yourselves are full of goodness, complete in knowledge and competent to instruct one another.
I will try to find the ones my pastor used or a book used later.
Have a great day!
Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 10:11 am
Good quotes, Jan. I think they all refer to someone who would be a fellow believer, not the government. So to have some accountablility to a fellow believer would be helpful, but to have more accountability to the government wouldn't be, in my opinion.
Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 1:26 pm
I would also like to point out that the scriptures used are ones about helping one another to lighten each other's burden, not about being accountable to one another. I would say that these verses suggest that there is unspoken understanding that the accountability is to the Lord.
Calleigh wrote:Good quotes, Jan. I think they all refer to someone who would be a fellow believer, not the government. So to have some accountablility to a fellow believer would be helpful, but to have more accountability to the government wouldn't be, in my opinion.