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My pros and cons list of each
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hbmom36
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Joined: 06 May 2006
Posts: 65
Location: California

PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tabz wrote:
Sherlock Holmes' point is that you can hide evil more in the country - because there's not as many people around to witness it. I know that I have lived in both areas and have seen deeper evil when I lived in the small town Iowa setting than in East Los Angeles or Downtown Chicago.



I grew up in a very small town-and while I would agree that people can be just as "evil" in a small town as anywhere else, the town I lived in as a small child was the kind where EVERYONE knew exactly what you were doing. Not that they necessarily did anything about it. People don't like to get involved in another family's mess, no matter where they live. I would also speculate that some people may CHOOSE to live in the country because they believe they can get away with anything. My mother is 65, and could easily sell her home and buy a home in a senior citizens' townhouse complex. She claims that she is tired of being out in the country, especially in winter. However, she knows that she couldn't live the way she does now if she moved to a city. Her neighbors would not put up with the drug use, constant fights with her boyfriends and the general state of neglect she always keeps her home in. In the country, she is just an eccentric. In the city, she would be a serious nuisance.
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MeganWiles
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Theodore,

Don't get me wrong, I agree that homeschooling is a much more efficient way to teach. If every child in public school was taught one-on-one, they would also have great success, this is part of the difficult. 20 or 30 to 1 is not ideal.
I also agree that teachers who don't allow for student differences or are unwilling to work with special needs children are not doing their best. Once more with student to teacher ratio this is more challenging, but not impossible. I have worked a lot with ADHD student to allow them more freedoms in a classroom, and promote positive rewards for on-task behavior through a token economy system that have been very effective and created positive self-esteem.
As for the stats on jail time and attendance I was just stating the reasoning, not drawing any conclusions.

I have to say though that I do take issue with those that blame all teachers for the failure a the education system are short sited. When I hear statements about 7 hours of work being ridiculous, teachers being too strict, and it being unreasonable to send kids to school with the sniffles, it make me think that people are generalizing.

I also feel that it promotes the stereotype that homeschoolers are pulling their kids because they are being questioned about extreme absenses.

There are exceptions to every rule. Like one of the previous posts said, children can have severe ailments that lead to repeated absenses.

I hope that you understand though, that teachers (in general) are not "out to get" the kids they teach? They are most often doing their best in less than ideal circumstances. I think it is best to focus on the benefits of homeschooling and not crucify a group of people who are working hard to do a good job.

I believe that when homeschooling is not an option for whatever reason, that an involved, informed parent can work with their child's teacher to ensure a good education. Neither the educator nor the parent is in this alone, it is when they work together that the child gets the best benefit.

I believe that education is something that occurs every day with each human interaction. We learn from one another on this forum, we learn from our family and friends, we learn from our children and they learn fom us. I wish that instead of criticizing others, we should try to exchange knowledge for the betterment of us both.

Here's another study for you

Smile

When a psychologist planned an intervention for students with severe behavior problems, the results were mildly successful.
When a teacher planned an intervention for students with severe behavior problems, the results were mildly successful.
When they worked together on a plan, the results were incredible.
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Theodore
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 9:51 pm    Post subject: I've never said that the fault lies entirely with teachers: Reply with quote

I've never said that the fault lies entirely with teachers. In fact, I'd say that the fault lies largely with the bureaucrats, who come up with the policies that screw everything up (centralizing schools and increasing class sizes, removing just about every reward for working hard or penalty for not working hard, etc.) However, the important question is not who is at fault, but rather whether the public schools are doing a good job of educating - and while there are admittedly some good public schools (and a few bad homeschoolers), the public school system is in general doing a pretty poor job. Witness the heavy use of remedial learning in college and the business world.

And while individual teachers may not usually be part of the problem, the teachers' unions do make it overly hard to fire the minority of teachers who are part of the problem. Unions take the viewpoint that firing a few teachers for incompetence opens the floodgates to requiring that all teachers actually prove competence, so from their viewpoint they're doing the smart thing (keeping union dues high), but at the same time they're giving teachers all over a bad name and destroying public education. And the teachers' unions are also against any form of school vouchers, which would actually (gasp!) force schools to compete based on educational merit - and by extension, the educational merit of their teachers. Yet another strike against school reform. Is the object to be nice to teachers (not necessarily a bad thing, but...), or to educate children?

As for your study, I'm not trying to be nasty here, but where are the specifics? How many students? What types of behavior problems? What do you mean by intervention? How do you define mildly successful and incredible? Is this a study you can supply a link for? I could claim myself that homeschoolers are (on average) 2 years ahead by the end of high school, show more creativity and leadership, succeed better both in academia and the business world - and I'd be correct - but if I'm not able to back that up upon request with further information, then everything I've said basically amounts to a hill o' beans. Please elaborate.

(blame my Logic teacher for that last paragraph, not me Razz )
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Marcus
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IMO, Megan and Theodore are both correct. The initial post was generalizing public education while comparing it to the personal education that could be provided. Theodore, you were right on about beaurocratics and public education.

Cat35, if the level of education you can provide is greater than that of a public school then the choice is clear. Remember, home education can be greater in the content being taught also. You never mentioned this in your post.

The question I have is in considering homeschooling, are you attempting to improve the quality of education for your children, seperate or shield them from societal issues you see as problems or both? (or maybe some other reason?)
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Theodore
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 8:39 pm    Post subject: It's more societal than education: Reply with quote

What is your main reason for homeschooling?

I'd say that almost everyone homeschools for more than one reason, but as you can see from the link above, academics are the primary reason for only around a quarter of homeschoolers (who voted in our poll).
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AnnetteR
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Homeschooling con? Children need to be with other children to learn to socialize. I disagree. Parents (and adults) need to set the example and correct inappropriate behavior. This is not something that I see being addressed in schools, so I'm uncertain why, when discussing homeschooling a child, someone always argues that there is no chance for children to socialize. Homeschooling doesn't mean bolting the door and never letting your child see the light of day. Socialization is easily worked into homeschooling, and I say this wihout having really begun the homeschooling process (or have I?).

Pro: my child can work at his pace. I have a gifted child in the public school system and they will only let him work up to a certain level. The concern is yet another one of socialization.

Pro: my child can learn a second language, without being limited to the two or three that are available in immersion schools or are currently being introduced to some public schools.

Pro: I imagine that I can tailor a lot of subjects to some of my child's existing interests: hiking, climbing, photography, specific musical instruments, etc.

Con: being that I'm just starting it's a bit confusing sorting out what the law requires, choosing what to teach, learning what needs to be reported and when.

Con: feeling isolated (for the parent) if you don't know anyone else that homeschools (I'm looking into some local groups now).

Con: not having that time off while the kids are in school. Surprised
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trey
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 11:16 pm    Post subject: Re: My pros and cons list of each Reply with quote

Catt35 wrote:
I've been doing some serious research into homeschooling because I have three of my four children (10, 13, and 14) who are just not thriving in public school. Both my children and I have so many issues with our particular school district. So I came up with this list of pros and cons for both homeschooling and public schooling to help myself decide.

Homeschooling:
Pros:
1. No peer pressure for drugs, sex, etc.
2. No bullying or teasing
3. No 7 hour school day
4. No strict or abusive teachers
5. No truancy officer to tell me I should send my children to school when they are sick.
6. Concentration on emotional development, not strictly academic
7. More bonding time with my kids
8. We can tailor their lessons to fit their individual learning styles
9. No prison-like food
10. No more early morning waking up, sometimes before even the sun (none of us are morning people here)
11. No more rush, rush, rushing around stress in the am getting ready and off to school

I could go on, but I think everyone has heard enough...lol

Homeschooling cons:
Originally, before I began my research, my only two cons were:
I'm not teacher material and will they get a quality education

The lack of socialization thing never was a problem for us, because my children live around children their own age and there are too many other places for socialization besides just school: parks, clubs, 4H, Girl scouts, community events, etc. We found out that in our state the public schools have to offer their extracurricular activities to homeschooled children too. So socialization is simply not an issue for us. Besides, my children and I firmly believe it is better to have just a few really decent friends then 100's of acquaintances.

I couldn't really come up with any pros for public schooling but here is my list of cons:

1.)Too strict attendance ...the government and the school think of your child in dollar signs, not their emotional and physical health needs. I think it is utterly ridiculous to expect a child to sit for 7 hours in classrooms when their noses are running a mile a minute, they are coughing continuously all day, or have a severe headache. Forget about their emotional needs...you are allowed to take one day of an excused absence for a funeral. What about the grieving period?

2.)The food at our schools is awful. I have often had lunch at school with my 10 year old and the food is disgusting. Most everything is stale, bread as hard as a rock, and my children have told me they have a "cooks special" once a month where all the left overs in the fridge are thrown together for lunch that day. OMG...this scared the beejeebies out of me. Cleaning out the fridge and feeding that to my kids? I was horrified to say the least. Besides which, no allowances are made for vegetarians or other diets...my children (the 13 and 14 yo's) are vegetarians and when they asked if they could forgo their meat dish for some extra veggies they were denied the request.

3.) Sicknesses, pink eye, lice, etc.....things my children never experienced until they started going to public school. And because we have such a strict attendance policy here (basically if you aren't dying you have to go to school) my kids are always sick because they are exposed to it for 7 hours a day, 5 days a week.

4.)Bullying, teasing. I hated school growing up because every single year from kindergarten through my freshman year in high school I was either mildly teased for being shy, poor, etc., or beat up or mentally or physically abused by peers and in some instances even teachers. Fortunately my own children have only had to deal with mild teasing...but they shouldn't even have to deal with that. And are taught at school to simply ignore it.

5.)The arts (music, art, anything creative) is all but completely missing from my children's schools. My 14 yo has played the flute in band class since she was 10, and loved it til we moved here to this particular town...she says it is boring and they rarely ever learn new or difficult pieces. Art classes are only offered one year (actually just one semester) out of all four years of high school and as far as the grade schools here...art classes stop at 3rd grade...until that one semester in high school. My children are all highly creative, hands-on learners.

6.)Textbook learning only curriculum...my 7th grader has only had one field trip this whole year and my 4th grader has only had two and one was to our public library. My 7th grader has a minimum of 4 hours of reading and writing and doing worksheets almost every night for homework. The labs, field trips, hands-on learning is not stressed in our town at all. It's all about read a textbook, write on a worksheet. I think an equal mix of textbook and hands-on should be taught, the school believes otherwise....and math and science are the main subjects stressed here.

7.)High school is not focused on the children's interests at all....My 14 yo daughter has to choose between agriculture or industrial arts next year....those are her only two choices for the entire year....my daughter is a musician, artist, writer....not interested in cows or drafting at all.

I'm getting soooooooooo tired of typing so I will stop now...but I really have nothing good to say about our school system here. I have tried and tried to get them to start an organic garden at the schools and they tell me every time that we just don't have the funds for that...they are not open to change or improvement at all here. And my children are suffering because of it.

I think it's interesting that you only have pro's for homeschooling and cons for public school
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Theodore
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How would you modify the list if you were doing it?
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trey
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Theodore wrote:
How would you modify the list if you were doing it?
Ok I'll do that later it's too late to fill it all out now.
I guess it just seems to me that shes saying that there are no cons for homeschooling and no pros for public school which just isn't true.
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Against Homeschooling
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm afraid that you're not going to find very many people with a reasonable take on the homeschool/public school debate in this forum, Trey. However, I would love to see your list of pros and cons from the homeschooled child's point of view.

And while I'm posting, allow me to introduce myself. I am an ex-homeschooler now attending public school. I was lonely and miserable while I was taught at home, but to hear my parents talk I was perfectly adjusted and "socialized." I believe from my exposure to other homeschooled kids that this is a widespread case, so I make a point of reading up on this forum and occasionally posting when there seems to be need.

I think it's great that you're here to give us a balanced view of the debate, and I think that the thread you started has potential to clear up often-obfuscated points regarding friendship and peer exposure while homeschooling.
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Mark
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trey wrote:
Theodore wrote:
How would you modify the list if you were doing it?
Ok I'll do that later it's too late to fill it all out now.
I guess it just seems to me that shes saying that there are no cons for homeschooling and no pros for public school which just isn't true.

that depends upon which school district they are in.
Also depends upon how they intend to go about homeschooling. Smile

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Ramona
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 12:12 pm    Post subject: Socialization for gifted students Reply with quote

AnnetteR wrote:
I have a gifted child in the public school system and they will only let him work up to a certain level. The concern is yet another one of socialization.


I often see a belief out there in society that gifted programs in schools meet children's intellectual needs but short-change them socially, that kids need to socialize with more "average" kids and can't socialize with other gifted kids.

I think this belief is mistaken.

When I was in 8th grade my school district started a gifted program. My parents were invited to have me tested to see if I would qualify for it. They declined to have me tested partly because my mother was afraid that if I entered a gifted program I would lose what few "friends" I had and miss out on any small chance for "socialization" at school.

For the next 2 1/2 years I was in the honors classes with all the kids who hadn't qualified for the gifted program. (I never heard of anyone other than myself who had been invited but had not received parental permission for the testing.) I couldn't relate to them nor they to me. I was utterly miserable at school socially. It was even worse than it had been before all the gifted kids were taken out of my classes. (At least I had been able to occasionally find something they talked about that I could listen to with interest.)

In the middle of 10th grade the honors English teacher kicked me out of her class because I was so far ahead that she didn't have time to deal with me. My mother finally consented to the IQ testing and I had gifted English the rest of 10th grade and was in the gifted program completely for 11th and 12th grades. While school was still school and I was still not socially happy there, at least with kids who shared my level of interest in academics I could have some conversation. There were only 5 gifted courses and I was still socially miserable in PE and study hall not to mention lunch, homeroom, and the rare occasions when I ended up riding the bus those last 2 years instead of driving.

But the only kids I could really feel the slightest bit comfortable attempting to socialize with at all were the other kids in the gifted program. It wasn't segregation or snobbery. It was having something in common. The something wasn't the program or the school. It was our desire to learn and our continuous efforts to find things out in our free time in spite of whatever the school assignments were.

Ramona
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AnnetteR
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 1:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Socialization for gifted students Reply with quote

I was a gifted student that was left in my age related class because there was a concern that it would be awkward for my older brother if I were to share his classes.

I don't think the school system realizes how awkward it can be for gifted students to be visibly removed from their "peers" everyday to take "special" classes. I never made more than one friend per grade; I was lonely and miserable.

Kids don't pay follow the rules of peer socialization outside of school so why should they be expected to do so for school? How many children do you see at the parks asking for ID and proof of age before deciding to play with another child? Age seems to be the last thing they care about; what they want is to play and have fun.

Ramona wrote:
AnnetteR wrote:
I have a gifted child in the public school system and they will only let him work up to a certain level. The concern is yet another one of socialization.


I often see a belief out there in society that gifted programs in schools meet children's intellectual needs but short-change them socially, that kids need to socialize with more "average" kids and can't socialize with other gifted kids.

I think this belief is mistaken.
Ramona
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gr8scott
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 10:03 pm    Post subject: Homeschool through high school Reply with quote

I have 3 children, boys 14 and 11 and a 7 yr old girl. I am getting intimidated as high school is approaching fast. My oldest has given me grief almost every day with complaining about school. He doesn't want to go to public school (nor do I want him to) but I feel he needs to get out from under me and be accountable to someone else. He has taken a science class from someone else and really shocked me with his care about getting his work done on time. I feel he is a little on the lazy side as far as wanting to homeschool only because it takes up less time in a day. I am wanting to keep him out of the public schools, yet have him accountable to someone other than me ! We have a great relationship but I am beaten down with his constant complaining when it comes to school. Is there anyone out there who might have some great advice for me? I am looking for some direction to go next year, as I can't do it the way we have been for another year! Just to give you an idea.....when he was almost 3, my neighbor potty trained him because he would "go" for her but complain to me!! I know this is my problem, not his, so any words of advice would be greatly appreciated!
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bobbinsx5
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is there a co-op in your area you could get involved in? That may be one way for you to get through this period, however, I will say (speaking from experience, here) if he isn't going to do what you say, that needs to have the greatest amount of attention. He needs to be motivated to do what you say because you are his parent, and the Bible says he is supposed to. (I'm not being judgemental, I'm saying this because I have had to deal with this from one of my kids that was a lot younger than your son at the time.) Just a thought...
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