Pro-life vs Pro-choice

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Lily
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Postby Lily » Mon Jan 28, 2008 2:19 pm

Decrease wrote:Lily,

If it is irrational, show how it is irrational. That is all you have to do. Saying my assessment is irrational does not make it so. I think I have made a fair comparison and you don't. I have shown how I believe my comparison is valid. You have not shown how you think it is invalid, you just say it is. I would be perfectly willing to see a distinction if shown, but it has not been shown.


Decrease,
No matter what I say you will not accept it as invalid.

I find your comparison childish and without merit. If you need further explanation, I suggest you revisit your history books.
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Theodore
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Postby Theodore » Mon Jan 28, 2008 2:52 pm

Decrease does sort of have a point. Hitler believed that Jews (and blacks, gays, etc.) were subhuman and leeches on society and therefore it was ok to kill them. How is that different from the abortionist view of babies? You do know that Margaret Sanger was an ardent eugenicist who advocated both abortion and mass sterilization as a way to exterminate the "negro" population? Hitler was a big fan of Margaret Sanger, and the Nazi movement based a lot of its early legislation off work done over here. The Nazis just took things a step further.

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Postby Lily » Mon Jan 28, 2008 2:59 pm

Theodore wrote:Decrease does sort of have a point. Hitler believed that Jews (and blacks, gays, etc.) were subhuman and leeches on society and therefore it was ok to kill them. How is that different from the abortionist view of babies? You do know that Margaret Sanger was an ardent eugenicist who advocated both abortion and mass sterilization as a way to exterminate the "negro" population? Hitler was a big fan of Margaret Sanger, and the Nazi movement based a lot of its early legislation off work done over here. The Nazis just took things a step further.


I still am not seeing the point of comparing humans with rights of their own to a 3 day old clump of cells that hasn't even implanted in the uterus.

No, sorry, not seeing the comparison at all. Nor am I seeing the comparision in allowing others choice over their own bodies with a man who killed off almost an entire population by his choice. Unless, of course, you are insisted that the Gypsies, Jews, and so forth wanted to die and he allowed it.

No?

Alright, so the Hitler comparison still has no point except hyperbole. Once that gross exaggeration is removed, the conversation can go on.
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Theodore
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Postby Theodore » Mon Jan 28, 2008 3:35 pm

Babies have survived outside the womb at 22 weeks or even earlier, and babies are recognizable as human long before that. Either way, your own criteria should ban late-term abortion at minimum. I believe you set your cut-off at 26 weeks instead? Why? Talking about clumps of cells is evading the main issue, which is that if babies are human at x weeks, then it's murder to kill babies after x weeks. Where to set x is a secondary discussion, let's hear a yes or no on the main issue.

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Postby Ceili » Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:50 pm

I personally don't see the cut-off point as a secondary discussion--it's the primary one. If the cut-off point is in dispute, the secondary discussion of abortion as the murdering of an innocent human being doesn't take place. For someone to argue that abortion is the murdering of an innocent human being, the person with whom you are arguing must agree that an embryo is an innocent human being--if that agreement isn't in place, there is no discussion or debate.

So, if the question is, "Is it ok to kill an innocent human being?" the answer by all will be a resounding, "NO!" The problem is defining what constitutes an innocent human being. That answer varies according to the law, science, religion, and spirituality.

It's just a totally different starting point--someone who is pro-choice doesn't see where they need to impose their choice, judgment, or beliefs on another in an attempt to protect an innocent human being because, from their perspective, there IS no innocent human being to protect.

And on and on and on it goes...

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Postby sunnie_skys » Mon Jan 28, 2008 5:09 pm

The last time I checked..none of us were God!! So why are we speaking for him. Its called free will and he gave it to us! Do you argue that??? Yes or NO? If he did not want us to make choices then he would have taken them away long ago!! I am certainly not God nor do I ever want to be and He gave me the choice to do what I want. Am I correct..yes or no? I dont need a long novel all i want is a yes or no. Im playing your card now decrease, yes or no, yes or no, yes or no? I agree with Lily you can not and should not make a choice for another person. If they do wrong they will have to answer for it in the end wont they? Yes or No?
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Postby Decrease » Mon Jan 28, 2008 10:13 pm

Sunny,

Truly, I have not inserted much in this debate about God. I have just argued rationale dialog. Namely, the two issues at hand are:

1. The issue of when life begins
2. The issue of whether there is an intrinsic human value to life

On #1, Some abortionists believe that we can rid the pregnancy because it is not a human life therefore could be exterminated. In that, I believe this is extremely logical and scientific.

On #2, the issue is philosophical. Abortionists will use some sort of sliding scale on human worth. Pro-Lifers usually say that all human life includes intrinsic human worth that requires us to protect that life.

Abortionists either disagree with 1 or 2... sometimes both.

I do believe this is a rationale debate. I also believe that 1 and 2 can be defended by Pro-lifers better than both.

If there is another vein of argument, I do not know, but there may be one.

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Postby Lily » Mon Jan 28, 2008 10:28 pm

Here's what you are missing, Decrease. There are no abortionists on this thread.

There are simply those who believe they have the right to control all and those who believe that rights and choices belong to the individual person. Pro-choice is not the same as pro-abortion.
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Postby Decrease » Mon Jan 28, 2008 10:28 pm

BTW, it is not pro-lifers who are playing God, it is those who want to choose whether someone live or not.

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Postby Lily » Mon Jan 28, 2008 10:38 pm

Decrease wrote:BTW, it is not pro-lifers who are playing God, it is those who want to choose whether someone live or not.


Well, then that individual would be the one to answer, right? And since we have no way of knowing what a person's life is like when/if they make that choice, it is not up to us to damn them.
I will say again that, in an era where education and choice is highly important, and where all decisions respected and honored - from single parenthood to adoption to abortion, abortion rates are going down. That says a LOT about our society as a whole. It says that given our freedoms we are more likely to choose wisely than when our freedoms are stripped away.
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Postby Decrease » Mon Jan 28, 2008 10:38 pm

Lily,

Same thing, to allow abortion you have to disagree with one of the two points. You either have a low view of the protection of life or you do not believe this is life. If there is another line then I would like to hear it. Yet, to say one should have a choice is one of those two wrapped up in a choice mantra (it is not a life or that Life should not be protected).

Give me another one.

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Postby Decrease » Mon Jan 28, 2008 10:41 pm

Lily,

No, it means that people will not choose to kill a life. That is playing God. Playing God is not letting the natural course of things occur... it is taking a life.

I am not playing God, I am all for letting the pregnancy come to the natural fruition.

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Postby Lily » Mon Jan 28, 2008 10:46 pm

Decrease wrote:Lily,

Same thing, to allow abortion you have to disagree with one of the two points. You either have a low view of the protection of life or you do not believe this is life. If there is another line then I would like to hear it. Yet, to say one should have a choice is one of those two wrapped up in a choice mantra (it is not a life or that Life should not be protected).

Give me another one.


Again, seeing as how I do not know a person's situation, this is not my choice to make. I refuse to make it for another human - refuse to force my ideals on how their life will turn out.

It's not my choice, but I accept and respect the choice of others.
"The greatest sign of success for a teacher... is to be able to say, "The children are now working as if I did not exist."

- M. Montessori

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Decrease
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Postby Decrease » Mon Jan 28, 2008 11:07 pm

Lily,

So, can I have slaves? Since you do not want to make a decision for others, why not? If I have a child who is 2 days old, why can't I kill it?

Again, let's argue the logical issues on the value of life. The issue of not making a choice is actually a choice made.

Again, what I do not like about the pro-choice movement is that there is no logic to it. They just want choice... no questions asked. Yet, ultimately either they redefine life or your devalue life.

Get into the debate and answer my previous questions. Ultimately, you believe that all people are not equal and some do not have an intrinsic value to life and others do... based upon a popularity contest.

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Postby Lily » Mon Jan 28, 2008 11:22 pm

Decrease wrote:Again, what I do not like about the pro-choice movement is that there is no logic to it. They just want choice... no questions asked. Yet, ultimately either they redefine life or your devalue life.


And what I don't like about the pro-life movement is they don't follow up. They figure that once the child is born, it's the parent's duty - not the society who forced it. They don't understand that support is more important that condemnation for someone in a very scary place, and they have no capacity to step into another's shoes. They figure that by making it illegal, it will stop it, when in reality is that the most of the women that do have abortions would still have one - in an unsafe environment.

Get into the debate and answer my previous questions. Ultimately, you believe that all people are not equal and some do not have an intrinsic value to life and others do... based upon a popularity contest.


Debate? When you remove the references to Hitler, I will go back to your original questions. Until then, my answer is that I am pro-choice, because I do not have the capacity to make a choice for someone else without knowing their situation, and forcing them to conform to my own ideals.

This answer will be repeated ad nauseum until either a) the ludicrous references are removed so that a true debate is possible, or b) you accept my answer.
"The greatest sign of success for a teacher... is to be able to say, "The children are now working as if I did not exist."

- M. Montessori

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