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Theodore
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Joined: 06 Oct 2005
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Location: Missouri, US

PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 7:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, the objections from the politicians stop anyway. I'll speak against corruption regardless of who's doing it. Thankfully, our local politicians aren't all bad - Senator Todd Akin is a friend of the family and a straight arrow, and Talent was good too until he got beat out by like 5% of the vote this time around. I waited in line for like an hour and a half in freezing weather so I could vote, but it just wasn't enough - oh well.
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laurabeth
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Theodore wrote:
We need to start using "conservative" and "liberal" rather than "Republican" and "Democrat" because both parties seem to act more or less the same way when it comes to pork barrel projects, lobbyists, etc. It's only evil behavior when the other side is in power and doing it, then the objections disappear when your side takes over.

I very much wish that it were possible to elect third-party candidates, but it seems impossible for a third-party candidate to win without hundreds of millions of dollars, which means either a massive private fortune or making deals with at least some of the lobbies. Reason: So many people are badly educated these days that they'll believe anything they hear on TV, so massive TV campaigns are necessary for a win. I doubt more than a small minority of the voting population actually bothers to research candidates on their own before voting.



I was just using democrat as an example here, but using liberal and conservative is no better if you ask me. Just because someone is one or the other it doesn't mean that there views on everything are the same as every other liberal or conservative. I agree with you on the rest of your post though.
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Calleigh
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can't be too sensitive or you will end up nitpicking. I'm sure someone could find something wrong with any statement regardless of how careful the person was trying to be. I'm sure I and others get lumped into sterotypes all the time because of being a Christian. I would defend my position and leave it at that. I know who I am. If someone wants to lump me into a sterotype I'm not going to be able to stop them anyway. I know the reason they would put me in that "category" is because I share many of the same ideas and values while still being a separate individual.

It's kind of funny looking at this post though...There have been so many posts talking about how children should be sent to school to be lights and good influences and yet here we are debating this issue with adults feeling like they don't belong and struggling with it in a forum! Think how much worse it is for the kids in the public schools who can't even express that without being ridiculed. How interesting to think about that.

Calleigh
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laurabeth
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Calleigh wrote:
Can't be too sensitive or you will end up nitpicking. I'm sure someone could find something wrong with any statement regardless of how careful the person was trying to be. I'm sure I and others get lumped into sterotypes all the time because of being a Christian. I would defend my position and leave it at that. I know who I am. If someone wants to lump me into a sterotype I'm not going to be able to stop them anyway. I know the reason they would put me in that "category" is because I share many of the same ideas and values while still being a separate individual.

It's kind of funny looking at this post though...There have been so many posts talking about how children should be sent to school to be lights and good influences and yet here we are debating this issue with adults feeling like they don't belong and struggling with it in a forum! Think how much worse it is for the kids in the public schools who can't even express that without being ridiculed. How interesting to think about that.

Calleigh


I am really not that sensitive and I am not trying to nitpick either, I am just trying to point that stereotypes do alienate people and you should think about statements before you make them. As I already said, I am not looking for sympathy or special treatment or anything, I am pointing it out. I am not trying to lesson what happens in public school either, that statement only strengthens what I am saying, shouldn't we be better than a bunch of bully's in ps? Having a "just deal with it" attitude rather than discussing it which is all I was trying to do here is no better than sending those kids of to ps and making them "just deal with it". The fact that ps kids have to deal with the ridicule doesn't make ridicule any less of an issue here or anywhere else. As mature people we should be able to think about how our statements might affect other people. And I am not talking about one stereotype or two that just affect me, I am talking about all stereotypes, all groups of people, like me or completely opposite. No one child or adult should feel shunned or ridiculed for there beliefs etc. and I was/am simply pointing it out, its not like I am sitting here attacking others because I don't like there point of view or turning the tables and stereotyping them back. I honestly thought this was a reasonable manner to bring the subject to light and have a healthy conversation about the effects stereotypes really have.
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Calleigh
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Absoulutely! I am the first to agree that a "just deal with it" attitude when someone is being ridiculed is not effective. No one should accept being ridiculed; although they do have "deal with it" in some form or another. Either by responding to it, ignoring it, etc. Because we can't control how other people will treat us all the time (or even most of the time). I thought it was an interesting comparison. I don't recall anyone being ridiculed on here though. However, I haven't read every single post, so maybe I missed something. My point was that if people are going to discuss things they are going to say things that someone would maybe be sensitive about. Like I said before, this forum seems pretty mild to me and people do seem pretty sensitive to others feelings.

I think it was a resonable manner to bring the subject up and people responded to it. I don't think that the conversation has been unhealthy. Confused

Calleigh
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seekingmyLord
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Joined: 04 Jul 2007
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Location: Standing in the radiance of His glory.

PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that a person who stereotypes can envision expectations that could be inaccurate for any individual, however I don't see stereotyping as "alienating" except by those who would wish to alienate themselves from people that don't meet their expectations anyway.
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zozomom
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Joined: 17 May 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gee Whiz everyone!
here's my 2 cents. Thank God that we live in the USA and other countries where we can express our opinions, as different as they are. I feel like nowadays, though, we tend to be too thin skinned. When we read something we don't agree with,we often ( and I'm including myself in this)get offended rather than viewing the idea as someone's opinion. People post their ideas as they come and don't always take the time to think and rethink again, trying to find something that may possibly offend someone.
Let's just all extend grace to each other and continue on with our day.
Blessings to all of you .
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laurabeth
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Calleigh wrote:
Absoulutely! I am the first to agree that a "just deal with it" attitude when someone is being ridiculed is not effective. No one should accept being ridiculed; although they do have "deal with it" in some form or another. Either by responding to it, ignoring it, etc. Because we can't control how other people will treat us all the time (or even most of the time). I thought it was an interesting comparison. I don't recall anyone being ridiculed on here though. However, I haven't read every single post, so maybe I missed something. My point was that if people are going to discuss things they are going to say things that someone would maybe be sensitive about. Like I said before, this forum seems pretty mild to me and people do seem pretty sensitive to others feelings.

I think it was a resonable manner to bring the subject up and people responded to it. I don't think that the conversation has been unhealthy. Confused

Calleigh


I never said any individual on here was being ridiculed, groups of people are in a way though. I do understand that people do have to just deal with it, thats what I did in starting this thread, I dealt with what I saw and how I felt and my only point was to bring to light that what you say may come across differently than you intend. Its not sensitive "topics" I am talking about here though, its the stereotypes people add to those topics. No matter what the bottom line is that not ALL homeschoolers are "x" and I think we would all fight to the high heavens to defend that. In that same right, not ALL "democrats" or "republicans" or "liberals" or "conservatives" etc, etc, etc, are the same either and all I was doing was pointing this out and hoping that people might realize that being that we are all different here, it might be nicer, or more "politically" correct, or however you want to put it, to use less broad stereotypes such as the ones above. Everyone has a right to post what they want, and I know this. If people don't care who there broad stereotypes might offend there is nothing I can do to change that, and thats fine. But that being said I started this thread to put my thoughts on the matter out there, whether people choose to take them into consideration or not is up to them.
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laurabeth
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

seekingmyLord wrote:
I think that a person who stereotypes can envision expectations that could be inaccurate for any individual, however I don't see stereotyping as "alienating" except by those who would wish to alienate themselves from people that don't meet their expectations anyway.


I think the alienating part is when people who are part of a group (lets continue with my democrat example) like democrat, see democrats bashed in general, it can make that person share less that could very well be valuable insight or suggestions etc. I think it could even make someone just say forget it and leave the board or whatever situation it is completely. When a person feels like they don't fit in I think they are less likely to contribute and that is a loss if you ask me. It doesn't matter what your beliefs etc. are, when talking about a group of educators I think most all have something to share that can benefit someone else.
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laurabeth
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zozomom wrote:
Gee Whiz everyone!
here's my 2 cents. Thank God that we live in the USA and other countries where we can express our opinions, as different as they are. I feel like nowadays, though, we tend to be too thin skinned. When we read something we don't agree with,we often ( and I'm including myself in this)get offended rather than viewing the idea as someone's opinion. People post their ideas as they come and don't always take the time to think and rethink again, trying to find something that may possibly offend someone.
Let's just all extend grace to each other and continue on with our day.
Blessings to all of you .



Like I said before, I was just pointing out that doing that checking twice might not be a bad thing, because your right, most times people don't think about the fact that it could offend. I am not in disagreement with you, I just think its not a bad thing to bring up and talk about. After all, aren't we all here to help and support each other?
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Calleigh
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Being "politically correct" would be an issue for me. If people have to be politically correct on here they really aren't free to share their opinions. Again, I'm not saying that people should rip others apart, but if you want to be politically correct you basically can't say anything; you may offend someone. Rolling Eyes


Calleigh
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ncmom
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zozomom wrote:
Gee Whiz everyone!
here's my 2 cents. Thank God that we live in the USA and other countries where we can express our opinions, as different as they are. I feel like nowadays, though, we tend to be too thin skinned. When we read something we don't agree with,we often ( and I'm including myself in this)get offended rather than viewing the idea as someone's opinion. People post their ideas as they come and don't always take the time to think and rethink again, trying to find something that may possibly offend someone.
Let's just all extend grace to each other and continue on with our day.
Blessings to all of you .


I agree! I get tired of having to walk (or post in this case) on eggshells so I don't offend someone. People today need to either grow thicker skin or do what I was always told to do, "let it roll off like water on a ducks back". I would never intentionally offend someone else but my goodness my opinion is just that, my opinion. If you don't like it that is fine, but don't get all bent out of shape. As far as groups and stereotyping, good heavens, could we worry about being PC a little more. A group of like minded people (or whatever the group is made of) is just that a group. If you don't want to be grouped with them then don't associate with that group. If you do choose to associate with them and someone says something about them you don't like you have several choices. You can say something back, get over it and move on, or let it fester. And to read your posts several times to make sure it won't offend someone would make it so you never posted anything. There is always someone out there that won't like what you have to say and will be offended. I am not advocating that you purposely hurt someone just that it is impossible not to offend someone if you are posting your true opinions and not just posting some overly politically correct rhetoric.

Now my two cents being said, I really think that this is getting way out of control and everyone needs to just move on. Especially since all everyone is doing is running in circles. We don't know the exact circumstances (I am not asking for them) so we really don't know how to respond.

Quote:
I honestly thought this was a reasonable manner to bring the subject to light and have a healthy conversation about the effects stereotypes really have.


It obviously wasn't just general stereotyping that bothered you. It was something that you felt was an attack against your "group" or "beliefs" or "whatever". So since your first post indicated this to everyone who read it you can't feel as though now that everyone should be discussing this as a hypothetical and be getting somewhere productive with it. I understand and can hear the frustration but without going into the details with everyone you aren't ever going to get the resolution you feel you need. My suggestion next time this happens either respond to the post with your opinion and take your chances with what other people will say in their opinions or send the poster a private message expressing how you feel. However, this is just my opinion.
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seekingmyLord
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Joined: 04 Jul 2007
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Location: Standing in the radiance of His glory.

PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

laurabeth wrote:

I think the alienating part is when people who are part of a group (lets continue with my democrat example) like democrat, see democrats bashed in general, it can make that person share less that could very well be valuable insight or suggestions etc. I think it could even make someone just say forget it and leave the board or whatever situation it is completely. When a person feels like they don't fit in I think they are less likely to contribute and that is a loss if you ask me. It doesn't matter what your beliefs etc. are, when talking about a group of educators I think most all have something to share that can benefit someone else.

That is possible, but I also think you have an expectation that cannot be met unless the person does not have the capacity to think. One cannot express even one opinion without someone somewhere disagreeing with it. That same person who feels unwelcome will most likely post an opinion making someone else feel the same, if the other person was of the mindset to take it personally. An opinion made in a general context of a group with which I feel affiliated is really not something I ever take personally regardless of how negative it is.
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laurabeth
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really cant believe how out of hand this has gotten. If I could I would delete the whole thread! I am sorry but I don't think it is to much to ask to think about what you say before you say it. Isnt that what we teach our kids? I teach mine that....... or how bout if you have nothing good to say dont say anything......

If you read the post where I used the dreaded "politically correct" phrase I said nicer, politically correct or however you wanna put it. I was not trying to insinuate a message board should be 100% politically correct, that is taking it out of context. And to say it "obviously wasn't general stereotyping that bothers you" is incorrect. I hate stereotyping all together, I think it is wrong to put any one group of people in a lump like that and say they are all "x" period. I did say in my original post that some things I saw bothered me because I felt they were lumping me in with others where I didn't belong. I chose to bring it up in this way because I thought it would be more productive than saying oh blablabla isn't true because it becomes a whole different debate. I didn't mention specifics because they don't matter to me period. No one should be lumped!


I am not talking about people not giving there opinions, I am talking about someone making a statement against, or for, for that matter a specific group. Saying "I think all democrats hate homeschoolers" is different than saying "all democrats hate homeschoolers" for example.


My #1 point that seems to keep getting lost here is that everyone on this board should know what its like to be looked down on or had things said about because of 1 thing about them......homeschool, something we all have in common. So knowing how much you hate being in that situation why would you want to put others in that situation because of another part of them?

I said from the beginning that although I didn't like what I saw I didn't think there was malice to it or anything, and I stand by that. I am not sitting here crying myself to sleep or something over other peoples lack of thought about what they post in some forum.

You wanna know the gods honest truth though? I feel more attacked in this thread than in any post I saw that lead me to make this one, how ironic is that......... I post to try to bring up a topic that might make this place more welcoming to more people than it is, and I get my words picked apart, taken out of context, told what my intent was, and get told to alienate someone in particular instead of pose a reasonable topic to the forum at large and offend someone who had no bad intentions to begin with or pick a fight in that thread, ....... go figure right....... I feel like I am back in the school yard being picked on because I voiced an opinion.
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ncmom
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

laurabeth wrote:
I really cant believe how out of hand this has gotten. If I could I would delete the whole thread! I am sorry but I don't think it is to much to ask to think about what you say before you say it. Isnt that what we teach our kids? I teach mine that....... or how bout if you have nothing good to say dont say anything......

If you read the post where I used the dreaded "politically correct" phrase I said nicer, politically correct or however you wanna put it. I was not trying to insinuate a message board should be 100% politically correct, that is taking it out of context. And to say it "obviously wasn't general stereotyping that bothers you" is incorrect. I hate stereotyping all together, I think it is wrong to put any one group of people in a lump like that and say they are all "x" period. I did say in my original post that some things I saw bothered me because I felt they were lumping me in with others where I didn't belong. I chose to bring it up in this way because I thought it would be more productive than saying oh blablabla isn't true because it becomes a whole different debate. I didn't mention specifics because they don't matter to me period. No one should be lumped!


Again that was an opinion...I had no idea that you had brought up being PC and unless you take it out of context to what I said then it wasn't written in an inappropriate manner. It was in reference to stereotyping groups. And what I said was if you are in a group or associated with a group of like minded people don't be surprised if you are stereotyped with what the majority of the group believes or says.

Quote:
And to say it "obviously wasn't general stereotyping that bothers you"


And I said this because although you may be against all stereotyping what was at the root of your original post was a specific incident. If you read closely what I said you will see that, that is exactly what my post said too. As far as teaching our children not to say anything if they can't say something nice. Yes I teach my children that too, but what most of the people who have posted here are trying to say is that it is impossible in todays world not to offend someone regardless of whether you are trying to or not. Just because you stop and think before you speak doesn't mean that someone won't take it out of context or get upset for some other reason at what you said. Furthermore, how are you supposed to know what will and won't offend someone and why should someone if they are in a group be afraid to speak their mind and opinions for fear of this? That is just as wrong.

Quote:
I am not talking about people not giving there opinions, I am talking about someone making a statement against, or for, for that matter a specific group. Saying "I think all democrats hate homeschoolers" is different than saying "all democrats hate homeschoolers" for example.


Actually if you were to use either one of those statements you could potentially offend someone. That is the point people are trying to convey. It doesn't matter how you word it, the possibility of someone getting upset is always there. No matter what the discussion is about, you could be talking about the weather and still offend someone. It is how life is.

I think you should go back and read my post again and not take it so personally. The first part was just a general response to another post the second part is where I quoted you and what I said was that your ORIGINAL post let us all in on the fact that it was personal to you. I also said that this was getting way out of control and everyone needed to move on.

If you want to have a simple debate about an issue I suggest that next time you don't relate it anyway to a personal incident that you have encountered on this board. That way people are trying to guess what the situation you were talking about was and they aren't all trying to figure out if it was them or not that said whatever, which is what was going on here. They may not have said that directly but think about it. If you had posted on the same post as someone and then they opened a new thread like you did wouldn't you wonder if you had said something to offend them. It is human nature and like it has been said a number of times that none of us would intentionally say anything hurtful so it is normal to want to know if it was you or not.
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