Homeschool World Forums     Home     Mall     Catalog     Articles     Contests     Events     Groups     Forum     Contact  
Homeschool World Forum Forum Index Homeschool World Forum
Read thousands of forum posts on topics such as homeschool law, getting started, curriculum, special needs, homeschool vs public school, and much, much more!
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Tremendous hostility over homeschooling
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Homeschool World Forum Forum Index -> Homeschool vs Public School
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Sunnymom
User


Joined: 07 Jul 2007
Posts: 25

PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I completely agree with your whole post, Theodore, but I would like to point out that when most folks talk about 'fitting in', they are not usually talking about the use deodorant and mouthwash. Razz In my experience, folks will talk about how HSers aren't 'normal' because they are too reserved, too polite, too interested in talking to adults than other children their age, too academically ambitious, too disinterested in pop culture and whether or not some poptart in Hollywood is wearing underwear this week.Rolling Eyes

Seriously, I have heard folks object to HSing because HS kids were too 'polite'- so if we have to act like rabid wolves to 'fit in', count me and my kids out- waaaaaaayyyy out! Cool

There is definitely a double standard at work. When PSers win academic competition, it's "Oh how wonderful public education is that it can produce such genius" and when an HSer wins it's "Whatdya expect? They don't have anything else to do all day but memorize spelling lists." Some people just have something lodged in their colon about HSing, and it doesn't matter that Edison and Jefferson and Franklin and Lincoln and Condilezza Rice were HSed- HSing hoovers in their opinion, and they don't have to prove a single objection they come up with in their pointy little heads.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Lily
User


Joined: 10 Jun 2007
Posts: 427

PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sunnymom wrote:

The problem is in assuming that weirdness is because of HSing- I mean, have none of us ever met someone who was socially inept and isolated who went to PS? Have you ever met someone who was dumber than a box of hammers that went to PS? Have you ever known someone who was not a 'team player' that went to PS? See where I am going here?

So why is it when someone meets an 'odd' HSing family, they are odd because of HSing and not because that is the way they would be in PS, HS, or colonizing Jupiter? It is intellectually dishonest to claim that some dysfunctional family is so because of HSing, not because they'd be that way regardless of what method of education they chose. It is like saying that you met someone who lived in a blue house that was weird, so all blue houses are homes of weird people, or blue houses cause people to be weird.




Rolling Eyes


Quite honestly, yes, I think these two people were this way because of homeschooling. They were isolated and cut off for much of their childhood, they missed many opportunities and lessons that other children got. Two families, both homeschooled, both producing very strange results. It was a very select career field, but the only two with these problems were homeschooled from birth through high school. Talking to them and finding out more about their childhood led me to believe that this was one of the worst things a person could do to a child.

I don't see it akin to your blue house analogy, but more to saying a child abused has these characteristics. And if this abuse is what stands out, then I can see where people get the idea that homeschooling produces these results as a norm, not as an exception.

If you had bothered to read my entire posts you wouldn't have jumped the gun with your offending eye-roll there -all ready to defend but without a thought behind it.

It is intellectually dishonest to say that there is no base whatsoever for stereotypes. Understanding them is the first step to overcoming them, right?
_________________
"The greatest sign of success for a teacher... is to be able to say, "The children are now working as if I did not exist."
- M. Montessori
Proud non-member of the HSLDA
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sunnymom
User


Joined: 07 Jul 2007
Posts: 25

PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

While I did quote your post, I wasn't directing my comments at you specifically- more addressing what I perceive as the inaccuracy of certain assumptions. As an HSer for many years, I have run across this idea that HSing causes certain behaviors, but this idea is not applied to PSers. Kids in PS can be shy, socially inept, bigoted, violent, etc.... but no one says that PSing causes these things. I think these are personality and parenting issues, not HSing issues, KWIM?

I think the HSing stereotype is a media-contrived stereotype, not a valid one. It is based on inaccurate assumptions, of which I have heard many thru the years. There are individual stereotypes in school- jocks, brains, princesses, etc... but how do you lump all HSers everywhere in the world into a pile, when there are a few million of them HSing for every reason from religion to family lifestyle? I mean, there are pagan HSers and gay HSers and single parent HSers....how does one squeeze a valid stereotype out of that?

Sorry I offended you with the eyeroll- I had used it earlier in the post, and thought I had deleted it, and didn't see it at the bottom of my post until I read your reply- it wasn't my intent to insult you. My apologies.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
momo3boys
User


Joined: 14 Feb 2006
Posts: 574
Location: Western Mass

PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Considering that all public school are cut from the same basic cloth it is easier to lump them up and make some more generalized thought about them, ex. the student to teacher ratio is too high, or it's too bad that many children aren't safe in schools anymore, or the children are being affected by bad government. When you talk about HSers you really can't do that at all. Every child will be affected in very different ways depending on each parent. and since every parent raises there children differently, even those with similar values, you get very different children. You definitely CAN NOT make generalities about HSers, PSers however are a little easier.
_________________
Phi 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Theodore
Moderator


Joined: 06 Oct 2005
Posts: 2122
Location: Missouri, US

PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Practically speaking, there are decent public schools with good teachers, they're just rare. Most of the problems boil down to just two factors:

1) Huge centralized schools with lousy student-teacher ratios. Given 40 students to manage, it's tempting to just ignore anyone who deviates from the average, plus teachers are less likely to listen to parents if most of the parents come from a different area.

2) Teachers' unions whose focus is on liberal ideology and maximizing membership, rather than actually improving the level of education in the schools. Teachers' unions actively block any incentive-based program, for instance, since if incentives can get teachers to work harder and produce better results, that shows that all the other teachers aren't working as hard as they can. And woe betide you if you try to teach regular math and phonics in a school that's embraced New Math and Whole Language!

Given, bloated school administrations don't help either.
_________________
Homeschool Articles - Events - Support Groups
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
momtimesfour
User


Joined: 11 Jul 2007
Posts: 3
Location: Arizona

PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 6:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Tremendous hostility over homeschooling Reply with quote

Calla_Dragon wrote:
This may be stating the obvious, but has anyone else ever noticed the enormous potential for the mere subject of homeschooling to create tremendous and intense hostility among non-homeschoolers and/or anti-homeschoolers. ...I just thought it was interesting how homeschooling has such a volitility about it it sets people off like a fireworks display sans fuses on the 4th.


In my experience, people who jump all over our decision to homeschool seem to take my choice to homeschool as a personal attack on their choice not to. I'm really careful about saying that homeschooling is what works for us - and I usually point out that it isn't a good fit for everyone. I wonder what reactions I will get in the next year or so now that my children have attended public school for a year.

But yes... just the subject coming up, especially in certain circles, just seems to ignite all kinds of ferociousness.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
StellarStory
User


Joined: 15 Apr 2007
Posts: 472

PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 11:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Every week on Wife Swap I see kids that seem really screwed up, not social and so on. They come from most public school but yes, there are some that are home schooling. You know why this happens? Strange, misguided or really messed up parents.

What's heart warming to me, each family truly does care about each other and want things to be better. They just need a wake up call and to look at another extreme family's POV.

It's pretty cool.

It's too bad everyone who is extreme to the detriment of their kids can't get that wake up call.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Theodore
Moderator


Joined: 06 Oct 2005
Posts: 2122
Location: Missouri, US

PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, homeschooling does sort of say that you don't have confidence in the school system to do a good job of teaching your kids, so people who are public schooling may view that as an intrinsic criticism against them. Just by being there, you're saying that they're giving their children a sub-par education by not taking the extra effort to teach them. It's just easier to attack your way of doing things than to change their own way of doing things.

Not that a lot of kids don't learn well in a school setting, assuming the school is trying to do a good job - it's the bottom and top achievers who need more personal attention. Lower class sizes and put decision-making control of the schools in the hands of the local parents, and homeschooling wouldn't be so necessary.
_________________
Homeschool Articles - Events - Support Groups
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Sunnymom
User


Joined: 07 Jul 2007
Posts: 25

PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Well, homeschooling does sort of say that you don't have confidence in the school system to do a good job of teaching your kids, so people who are public schooling may view that as an intrinsic criticism against them. Just by being there, you're saying that they're giving their children a sub-par education by not taking the extra effort to teach them. It's just easier to attack your way of doing things than to change their own way of doing things.


I understand that people think that way, but it is funny that no one is offended if you like Quarter Pounders instead of Big Macs, go to NAPA instead of AutoZone, or prefer Cottonelle over Charmin. But Ethel-get-your-clothes-on if you prefer one educational method over another!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Theodore
Moderator


Joined: 06 Oct 2005
Posts: 2122
Location: Missouri, US

PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's hardly the same thing, though I can't quite figure out how to explain how with words Smile
_________________
Homeschool Articles - Events - Support Groups
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Sunnymom
User


Joined: 07 Jul 2007
Posts: 25

PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 6:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, Theo, I know people don't perceive it as the same thing, but IMO it is. I don't get my knickers in a twist over what brand of tools other folks prefer, so why should they get offended over what educational method I prefer?

IMO it is just more institutional thinking- PS is the way it has 'always' been done (yeah right- for the last 120 years of over 6000 years of human history Rolling Eyes ) and folks don't like it when someone threatens their status quo.

The fact is, current traditional schooling methods are ineffecient and ineffective for most students. It is the Chalk&Talk for the Sit&Git. It is shotgun education- fire into the crowd and hope you hit something. Tutoring and apprenticeship have always been the most effective methods of education and vocational training, and PS can't reproduce that on any level. Homeschooling often does use one-on-one tutoring of one form or another, as well as allowing time for apprenticeship training or other creative methods for a child to pursue their talents and interests.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
seekingmyLord
User


Joined: 04 Jul 2007
Posts: 231
Location: Standing in the radiance of His glory.

PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 6:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lily wrote:

I can understand how people think that this is normal for hs'ing if this type of example is what they meet. "Normal" homeschoolers don't stick out, the off the wall ones do.


VERY good point! Cool
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Calla_Dragon
User


Joined: 22 Jan 2007
Posts: 212

PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 6:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think people inherently know that, generally speaking, it's a better way and it's been proven over and over again that homeschoolers usually outperform PS students. Since homeschooling does take a fair amount of time and effort, many people do not want to take that time and effort to homeschool their kids, especially dual income families who have to fork out extra cash for someone to watch their young child when the public school system will do it for free for the majority of the day. Seriously, these are some of the justifications I've heard from people. It's sad, but many people aren't willing to make the sacrifaces it takes to homeschool, especially in these days when the "keeping up with the Joneses" attitude is so prominent. You cannot sacriface one income when you have a house you can't afford and two car payments you shouldn't have. (If that sounds judgemental, sorry, but being in real estate, I can't tell you the number of families I've run into that have a home they have no financial business having and have to get rid of it FAST because they can no longer afford the payments.)

Since which brand of toothpaste you use or where you eat your hamburgers does little to affect your child's future, I don't think people get bent out of shape too much, but to even insinuate that they may not be doing the best they can for their children gets people's undies in quite a bunch - even if the insinuation is all in their minds. Many people who are hostile toward homeschooling are not secure in the own decisions they've made for their kids because they aren't willing to put forth the effort, can't sacriface the second income due to their chosen lifestyle, etc. - especially given the number of times I've heard the "homeschooling gives your child an unfair advantage" arguement.

My husband came up with a really good thought last night about homeschooling during a conversation we were having regarding his mother's views of it (and how she believes that a traditional classroom setting is the only way to properly educate and socialize a child and how she doesn't agree with the online public schools that are available nowadays). Our grandparents were educated and lived in an industrial age. For the most part, they learned what they needed to know in order to function in society, but most people went to work, did what they were supposed to, collected their wages and went home. Our parents were educated and lived some of their lives in the industrial age, but are now living in the information age. Some of them have had a hard time adapting, but many people of our parents generation still go to work, do what their boss says, collect their wages and go home. Our generation was educated in the beginnings of the information age using the industrial age method and we will live most of our lives in the information age educated with a sorely outdated education model. PS kids are now subject to the same fate only worse since the information age has and is progressing so fast, an industrial age method of education is not only cheating them out of their futures, but it's endangering our ability to progress and compete. People have a hard time breaking out of the mind set of going and getting a job, working for someone else for 30-40 years and then retiring. We need people who can think outside the box, be innovative and be not afraid to take their idea and run with it - we need thinkers, leaders, entrepeaneurs and risk-takers. Unfortunately, the public school system does not procure that mentality - they still teach children to do their job, listen to their boss, go home at the end of the day and do it all over again the next day and the next and the next. The good old factory-worker model at work.
_________________
To be idle is a short road to death and to be diligent is a way of life; foolish people are idle, wise people are diligent.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
seekingmyLord
User


Joined: 04 Jul 2007
Posts: 231
Location: Standing in the radiance of His glory.

PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 7:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sunnymom wrote:

My goal in life is not to 'fit in'- I mean, 'fit in' to what? Wink

Another good one!

I did not like worrying about fitting in when I went to public school either. Although at one time, when we moved to a new school, I was kind of popular, I always sat with the kid that was sitting alone--you know, the ones everyone else ignored and pushed away. They all were so lonely and most of them were surprisingly interesting and rather friendly, but they just did not make the cut for fitting into people's ideas of what was acceptable or conventional. SAD! Those groupies missed out knowing some people with real substance that did not that fade away like high school popularity.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
seekingmyLord
User


Joined: 04 Jul 2007
Posts: 231
Location: Standing in the radiance of His glory.

PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 7:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Theodore wrote:
Well, homeschooling does sort of say that you don't have confidence in the school system to do a good job of teaching your kids, so people who are public schooling may view that as an intrinsic criticism against them. Just by being there, you're saying that they're giving their children a sub-par education by not taking the extra effort to teach them. It's just easier to attack your way of doing things than to change their own way of doing things.

Not that a lot of kids don't learn well in a school setting, assuming the school is trying to do a good job - it's the bottom and top achievers who need more personal attention. Lower class sizes and put decision-making control of the schools in the hands of the local parents, and homeschooling wouldn't be so necessary.

I guess a PS parent could see it that way, but then it could be argued they would not if they were confident that it was an par to above-par way to educate their children.

Now the second part of your post is very interesting. It probably should be another topic in itself. I would venture to ask how many of the children seem to be average when they really are top achievers. I mean, when I was in school, I could read the entire textbook in a few weeks and be bored to tears the rest of the year if I did not just slow down to their speed, so why bother being anything more than average?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Homeschool World Forum Forum Index -> Homeschool vs Public School All times are GMT - 6 Hours (CST)
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Page 3 of 4

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group

Homeschool World Terms of Use  •  Privacy Policy  •  Copyright ©1993-Now Home Life, Inc.