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Why I am against Homeschooling
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Juloyes
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 6:36 pm    Post subject: socialization Reply with quote

it's so true! who is the best person to socialize your child? YOU ARE! Because you know how to be civilized! The blind are leading the blind in public school!
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birdy
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 5:19 pm    Post subject: Socialization has too many factors... Reply with quote

I have enjoyed the passion and depth of this thread!

In regards to socialization and Homeschooling verse Public Schooling. You are going to find postive examples and negative examples for both sides of the issue. You will never, in regards to this aspect be able to have a clear cut "x" is better than "y" in this particular instance because something like Socialization really is a collection of factors and influences that have nothing to do with either method of schooling.

A persons sucesses or lack of sucess in regards to socialization is influenced by their experiences, but also by what is modelled to them through all aspects of daily living.

There is also the consideration of an individual's temperments and inate genetics or creation. You reading this, are a unique and beautiful someone.

So, IMHO, while the debate is fun, passion raising, and interesting... it is based on a false premise that one's success in socialization is determined by the method that one was schooled in childhood. You will only suceed in entrenching yourself while possibly ignoring other very important aspects of socialization.

FYI, I was a psychology major in University (didn't complete my degree due to the arrival of our son but was 1 semester away from a B.A.), the key defining factor that I noticed in all my studies was an individuals exposure to other people. The way that they were guided through situations by their parent or guardian, and their ability to build up a framework from which to evaluate and process new events in the future.
There was one case study of a boy that was found locked in a closet. To all appearances when found, he was judged to be 8 years old, with a mentality of 3 years. But with proper nutrition he underwent such a dramatic growth spurt in a few months, that they recalulated his age to 16. However, a few month later, he died. They concluded, that he must have been locked up for years and years. The nutritional deficits he must have experienced in those years caused his physical development to be so dramatically stunted. But with proper nutrition his body did continue to develop (execpt for his sexual organs). However, they concluded that he actually died from being unable to handle the love and care given to him by his caregivers once rescued. When he died they described his mental state of being of complete anguish, never having progressed much from the three year old level.

This study always stuck with me, expecially the pictures that we were shown. The things that we are able to do to eachother is beyond my comprehension.

In regards to the debate Homeschooling versus Public School in general (aka, socialization aside), two points:

Homeschooling success is highly dependant on the individual facilitating the school (usually the mom). This, typically, is a great thing. However, it can be a huge negative as well. In latter years it does depend a far greater amount on the student. Which can also be a great negative, especially if that student has not properly learned to learn.

Because of above reason, my second point:

For the vast majority then, Public Schooling, with all of its negatives is the right answer, IMHO, for the vast majority. A society would fall apart if it did not make efforts to reach the weakest members in its midst. So if we were dependant on each parent to teach their children "readin', 'ritting and 'rithmatic" I have suspicions that many children would not learn these things. And in our society today, someone unable to read, write and do basic math is at a serious disadvantage.

If I were forced to have to choose, I would likely side on the Public school side. However, I am grateful that we live in a society that allows us to choose!

Thanks for reading my nickel's worth!

Roberta
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Theodore
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 7:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Socialization has too many factors... Reply with quote

I would agree with you IF parents were allowed to choose which school their children went to, and IF the teachers' unions didn't block all attempts to fire any but the most hopelessly imcompetent teachers, and IF the schools hadn't been centralized so that class sizes are 30+. A motivated parent with a 5th grade education is better than 1/30 of a teacher who may or may not even be competent herself. Are you trying to tell us that the vast majority of parents are unmotivated and/or totally unable to teach? I think they're just uninformed about their options.

Incidently, being locked in a closet is not the same thing as homeschooling. By definition, homeschooling is learning at home, and if no learning is going on, then you may as well be in school.

Lobby for school vouchers!
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birdy
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 7:57 pm    Post subject: Oops about the closet Reply with quote

Never did I mean to imply that Homeschooled children were in anyway similar to the child locked in the closet! The example was more meant to show how rediculous it is to argue that the method that one is schooled is the deciding factor for successful socialization. (note to self to look up the spelling of success... I just spell it one way one post and different another).

Sorry about that!

I grew up in Bangladesh, a child of a Relief Agency worker, and lived there until my 14th birthday.

People used to question my parents about me and socialization, since as I was growing up most of my friends were decades older than I. In no way has it concerned me but for a passing instant the "socialization" question.

In regards to IF parents could choose... I agree with you on that issue as well. However, along the lines of the quote I am going to misquote here about democracy "It's the best of the worst out there."

For the majority of North Americans, what is offered in Public Schools is the best of a worse way of schooling. After living in a country where the vast majority is uneducated and having seen adults gather in the light of a lattern late at night after working 16 hours to learn to read, I try hard not to nit-pick about our system and put more effort towards supporting public schooling in third world countries.

Roberta
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jacquekr
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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2006 2:33 pm    Post subject: My two cents . . . Reply with quote

This is my first ever post to this message board, and I have really enjoyed reading this thread.

There are a lot of points that I want to make, but to keep it short, I will stick to my main point- I will never home school my children.

Some of the most important things I learned in my life were in high school—an inner-city high school in Albuquerque, New Mexico. I learned leadership (by being Student Body Vice President). I learned responsibility (by having to be at school by 7:30am and by having my tennis and track team count on me). I learned what my values were (by making a choice not to have sex, drink, and do drugs). I learned what it was to love myself (when the boy I had a crush on didn’t like me back). I learned what it was like to have fun (being on Homecoming Court, playing senior pranks, cheering our football team on during the state playoffs). And I’ve also learned to cherish memories (laughing with an old high school friend I haven’t talked to in 5 years).

I graduated high school when I was 17. I moved 14 hours away to Texas to go to college. I joined a sorority. I graduated college when I was 21. I got married to a wonderful Christian guy that supported me in everything I did. I moved across country to a state I had never been to, just to take a job.

There are a lot of bad and lazy people out there. I was introduced to them at a young age and I learned to recognize these people and stay away from them. I didn’t learn this by hanging out with my Girl Scout troop, my sisters, or my youth group. I learned this from seeing the reality of the world, and having my parents there to guide me.

My parents pushed their four daughters and challenged them—we were all forced to go to college out of state. Now, we’re all in our 20’s and college graduates, home owners, highly successful, and moral people.

It’s not about keeping your kids at home all the time so you can “save” them from the evils of the public schools—or the “evil” Harry Potter books! It’s about being there when your kids get home and asking them questions. Understanding that at some time in their life, they will be asked to drink, have sex, do drugs, or other bad things. But, you teach them as best you can and assist them as they go into the world. Not having kids in high school postpones this, and just makes it harder for them when they finally leave.

(And a side note . . . What is the matter with a teacher just wanting to be there because of the paycheck and the retirement? It’s a job! Not everyone has to be a teacher for the “love of the children.” Give me a break! If you expect all teachers to “love” their job and give 110%, wake up! Anyone with a full-time job doesn’t feel that way . . . I think 99% of teachers do a good job—but that’s it, “job!”)
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Theodore
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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2006 10:49 pm    Post subject: Re: My two cents . . . Reply with quote

There is a difference between being in an environment where those questions come up occasionally (extracurriculars), and being in an environment where you're under constant pressure to do the wrong thing (public school). Parent involvement is the most important factor in how well children turn out, but the parents stay at home while their children go to school, and have little or no control over what is tought during those 8 hours per day, 5 days per week. You may have had a good school experience, but if you read through these boards, you'll find many people who have not.

And even putting all that aside, public school education is mediocre. Until parents can choose which school their children go to (school vouchers!) the schools will remain unmotivated to change. Control over funding has to switch from the federal government to local citizens before the schools can start resembling places worth attending.
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hbmom36
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PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2006 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was in public school until the age of 15. I was sad, shy and socially inept, despite having attended school consistently from preschool until 10the grade. I was bullied, threatened and finally forced out of public school. Why? I was DIFFERENT. I liked to read. I liked classical music. My two kids have never been in daycare, preschool or public school. They are two of the most social, well adjusted and happy children you will ever want to meet.
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hbmom36
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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to wonder, AH, why you are spending so much time on a homeschooling website when it was such a bad experience for you? "If only I hadn't been homeschooled, I might be....." There must be things you dislike about your personality, and you blame them on having been homeschooled. I had a very bad childhood-only child of a single, drug abusing mother, molested several times by her boyfriends. I spent many years wishing things could have been different, and wasted a lot of time being sad and angry over things I couldn't change. At some point, you have to leave behind whatever bad things happened to you and get on with your life.
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Against Homeschooling
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PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2006 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hbmom36: I don't spend a particularly large amount of time here. I check back now and then to see if any intelligent new developments have come up in this section.

The reason that I am posting here is to give perspective to parents who may wish to homeschool their children. I see very few negative viewpoints on homeschooling, even within the school system. The internet offers just as few dissenting voices. I think this is because homeschoolers have done an effective job in framing the issue through a few terms and have effectively crushed opposition to the obvious downsides of learning at home, away from one's peers.

I may not have the support of my family or the world at large in my outspoken views against homeschooling, but I have the ethos of one lonely and miserable experience and the absolute assurance in my mind that many, many other children are having just as horrible a time as I did that I am unwilling to back down on this front or any other. This isn't to justify ways in which I find myself inadequate. This is to tell an ignorant community where it is going wrong and to work to tell prospective members of that community what they are getting themselves into.
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momo3boys
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PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2006 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just because it was bad for you doesn't mean it is bad for everyone. That is called being prejudgiced. Like saying that all black people are bad just because of one bad experience.
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Theodore
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PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2006 8:35 pm    Post subject: So there's a vast conspiracy among homeschoolers? Reply with quote

There are very few posts anywhere from people who hated homeschooling. You can look at this fact and come to one of the following conclusions:

1) Almost all homeschoolers enjoy homeschooling, or at least prefer it to the alternatives.
2) The people who hate homeschooling are all illiterate.
3) There's a vast conspiracy among homeschool magazines and web sites to shut up the opposing view.

Which of those three choices would you like to pick? Occam's Razor says that 3) is highly unlikely, and 2) is insulting, so the answer has to be 1). There will always be exceptions to the rule - you, for example - but the vast majority of homeschoolers are quite happy the way they are. Even if they weren't happy, you'd still have to supply a better alternative, which public school definitely is not. A quick read through the posts in this forum should show that attending public school does not mean you automatically get a social life, even a shallow one. Homeschoolers are often people who were rejected in public school for having interests different from the norm.
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hbmom36
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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

People who are committed to homeschooling are not going to be swayed by one person who had a bad experience. Most of us had terrible experiences in public school. We feel just as strongly about public school as you do about homeschooling. As I said before, my two children are two of the happiest, most well adjusted kids you would ever want to meet. I think the problem for you was within your own family. A family that is not very social, doesn't like to go out much, etc., will not produce children that are socially well adjusted. Believe me, public school can be hell on earth for a kid who is the least bit different (smarter, dumber, fatter, thinner.....)than the rest of the crowd. That's the goal of public education-to make everybody the same. And that's not my own isolated view-I have done a lot of research AND I was told the same thing by a former public school teacher who is now homeschooling.
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Against Homeschooling
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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hear a lot of parents saying that they homeschool because their kids are smarter than all the other kids. Were these kids placed in an honors program or something similar? The kids I know who were removed from school because their parents believed that their problems stemmed from them being smarter were not challenged in this way - quite possibly because they were not up to the challenge. I don't have any evidence to back me up on this but I've heard it a lot.

Heaven forbid, momo3boys, that I should be "prejudgiced." Perhaps you have forgotten that I was homeschooled until the 10th grade.

hbmom36, you have done research which proves that there is a vast government conspiracy to make everybody the same? I feel like that sometimes, admittantly sometimes in school. If your kid has the strength to fight impulses of conformity, that's great. If the best approach you can find is to pull your child from the environment which will force him or her to choose individuality over conformity, I pity your child. And please don't pick on my family. Because of their efforts I got out a lot more (but certainly not an adequate amount) than many other homeschooled kids I know. Heck, I've managed to fit in in the brutal public school system, so they must have done something right, right?

Lastly, Theodore, I must admit that you have an unusual tenacity for spinning your point of view. There aren't a lot of anti-homeschooling posts on this forum? That might be because it is a homeschooling forum. It might be because homeschooling parents are very unlikely to post such material because they are unaware of the plight of their children. It might be that you are partially correct in your condemnations of the public school system, and because of this many in the school system are unwilling to get involved in the debate because they haven't experienced both sides of the issue. Perhaps you should take their lead to a degree. Of the two of us, I'm the one who has spent time trying both approaches. School worked for me, and homeschooling did not.
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hbmom36
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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
And please don't pick on my family. Because of their efforts I got out a lot more (but certainly not an adequate amount) than many other homeschooled kids I know. Heck, I've managed to fit in in the brutal public school system, so they must have done something right, right?


I wouldn't call fitting into public school a good thing. By the way, my 7 year old daughter reads at an eighth grade level. You tell me how a public school system would accomodate her. And I suggest you do some more research into the TRUE origins of your wonderful ps system. Namely "An Underground History of American Education" by John Taylor Gatto, who was a New York City public school teacher (named Teacher of the Year twice).
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Theodore
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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 11:29 pm    Post subject: You can be a leader or a follower, pick one. Reply with quote

I have yet to hear you give any argument in favor of public schooling other than that it gave you a better social life. True, there are a few homeschoolers who don't get out much - but there are also many public schoolers who are so stressed out by school that they get physically sick, and in any case, socialization is not exactly the only point of debate. There's also education, safety, disease, etc. Even if you assume that public school will always give you a better social life (which it certainly won't), how much are you willing to pay for that social life?

As for public school teaching conformity, there may be no statistics on that per se, but usually easy to tell who the homeschoolers are in any sort of class setting. They're the ones who speak up most. You see, they didn't go through years of being made fun of whenever they made a mistake (or didn't make mistakes, depending), so they never learned that voicing an opinion and being willing to back it is a bad thing. People who homeschooled all their lives tend to fill leadership positions in college and do quite well socially and academically, and this is easily verifiable by calling college admissions departments and getting their opinion on homeschoolers.

By the way, thank you for complimenting my tenacity, but considering the number of posts I've added to this thread, I think it's time to leave the debate to others. Feel free to get in the last word.
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