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Banned Books Week
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Theodore
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 3:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like I said, it's an issue of libraries being partially taxpayer-funded. If a private library wants to open and stock this stuff, I won't object, but I strongly object to having my tax money go to help pay for sex, violence, etc. themed children's books to be bought and/or displayed. If they're using my money, then I should have a say, though it should take a large majority opinion to actually get a book banned. A few percent of people objecting to Harry Potter is a lot different from 90%+ of people objecting to some of the books on that list.
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StellarStory
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 5:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think people write what speaks to them, what is in their souls and sometimes, what is commercially viable. When I write, it has to have meaning to me. It's an art. Some do write as journeymen to what sells though.
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Lily
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 7:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, former library clerk here. My mother's a librarian...we've gone around this several times in our family.

Theodore, if a private library wants to hold to a standard of beliefs, that is perfectly fine and reasonable. However, a public library is there to serve the public. Period. It is not fair for them to discriminate against a certain genre of books simply because 2-3 people in the population do not want them. Books are ordered because of popularity. If Attack of the Road Weenies is checked out several times a year, then the librarian pulls up the the record when s/he is ordering books, and will order the sequel. It is supply and demand. If there is nobody reading that genre, less would be ordered and more of what the people are reading would be on the shelf (which explains why we got in 22 copies of Danielle Steele's last book, and only one of His Excellency). Personally, I'd rather see trash like Danielle Steele banned for being horrid form writing and leave the well written Harry Potter on the shelf.

One thing I have noticed is often, most parents won't even read the book before getting in a huff about it and demanding that it be taken off the shelves. They read a review, or skim the pages. If you want to make a statement about a book, be knowledgable.

As a parent, yes, you do have a right to be aware and guide what your children are reading. This can be accomplished in several different ways. You can do as I do, and carry a list of authors/titles in my wallet that are not acceptable at that age. You can ask for a note to be put on your child's library account with the same information. Most importantly, you can talk with your child over and over about your personal values. But your values are just that - personal, and it is not fair to demand that an entire class or population cater to them.

Eta: this comment sent me in gales of laughter:
Quote:
but I strongly object to having my tax money go to help pay for sex, violence, etc.


Great. Let's ban the bible, anything written by Dr. Dobson, the Ezzos, the Pearls, and any other "christian" disciplinarian who likes to beat children instead of treating them like Jesus requested. Let's ban The Passion, any book on any war, any information on the Holocaust, 9/11, the military, and so forth.

You cannot brand one book as good and another as bad, simply because the violence described in one is in with your beliefs and the other isn't.
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Ramona
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When my kids were teeny, they picked out a library book to look at the pictures and have us read to them. They liked the brightly-colored pictures of children.

As I read it through at home, I was horrified. It was about a school class who had a sub and how horrible the sub was and how the kids all cooperated to be disrespectful to her, and how they hated a few of their classmates for not fitting in and the rest of them cooperated to bully those kids. The pictures tended to be of elementary school kids being totally out of control, spitting, making awful faces, doing disgusting things, etc.

I decided we were never bringing a library book home again unless I'd looked through it at the library and okayed it.

DH went to a workshop at a homeschooling convention a couple of years later where a mom said everything written for children after 1965 is vile. That sounded about right to me. It was around then that the movement began to make kids' books look "like reality" instead of being idealistic.

I prefer my kids to have good ideals held up before them.

Not to say that everything written before '65 is acceptable. I love the movie African Queen, but I didn't read the book aloud to the kids--not up to our family standards. More graphic than the old movie.

Also, I had to disapprove most everything written before 1990 for children to educate them about Native Americans because the older books were full of prejudice and biased language.

Those are just two examples.

I refrained from reading any Harry Potter for years because I assumed it would be too "realistic" and not "idealistic" enough for me. It is, but I've allowed my kids to read it anyway. The magic and stuff doesn't bother me a bit--that's just like Grimms' and Perault's and everyone else's old fairy tales, which we've read to the kids all their lives. But the way teenagers treat each other and adults in that series is a bit too "modern" for my tastes. However, as my kids have gotten older and gone out of our house more, they know real teenagers and they know what our family standards are, so reading about kids like the ones they meet in public isn't going to start them acting that way themselves.

I also read Huck Finn and the Nate Hentoff book about it being banned to the kids, and we've discussed reading choices quite a bit.

Ramona
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seekingmyLord
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I apologize to StellarStory for addressing this off-topic subject.

Lily wrote:
Great. Let's ban the bible, anything written by Dr. Dobson, the Ezzos, the Pearls, and any other "christian" disciplinarian who likes to beat children instead of treating them like Jesus requested.



Lily, I respect your right to state your opinion, however I really don't see how bringing this subject into the conversation does anything other than to spew hatred at Christians, who believe in spanking as an appropriate disciplinary action.

Having been an abused child and a Christian, I take offense to anyone equating a spanking as a disciplinary action from a loving parent to a "beating" resulting from uncontrolled anger, while presenting these two different things as being the same all in my Lord's name.

Ironically, if you read works by Dr. Dobson (as I cannot speak for the rest), you would see the difference in how it is suggested to handle spanking. If you have read even one of his books and all you saw was it promoted the beating of children... well, I am at a loss for words.


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Theodore
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're forgetting that most of those are for adults. I wouldn't recommend showing The Passion to young children either. My objection is not so much to crud per se (though I may find it personally objectionable), but rather putting it into a format that's meant to appeal to kids. There is zero benefit to exposing children to sex and violence for the purposes of promoting same, and I don't really care whether a handful of people request those books, the library shouldn't order them. A line obviously has to be drawn somewhere, and the issue is not really the line, but rather where to draw it.

FYI...
http://www.creationists.org/corporalpunishment.html

A light spanking is way less damaging to a child imho than either psychological punishment (silent treatment, for instance) or no punishment at all (child turns into an uncontrollable snot with no respect for you or anyone). It provides the best results with the least suffering. I know I probably won't agree with you on this, but I personally feel that people who don't use corporal punishment are causing their children serious long-term harm.

The brother of one of our friends was killed when he went motorcycle riding against his mom's express orders. If he'd had slightly more respect for his parents, he'd still be alive.

There is, as seekingmyLord says, a huge difference between a spanking and a random beating. One trains, the other makes things worse.
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Lily
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

seekingmyLord wrote:
I apologize to StellarStory for addressing this off-topic subject.

Lily wrote:
Great. Let's ban the bible, anything written by Dr. Dobson, the Ezzos, the Pearls, and any other "christian" disciplinarian who likes to beat children instead of treating them like Jesus requested.



Lily, I respect your right to state your opinion, however I really don't see how bringing this subject into the conversation does anything other than to spew hatred at Christians, who believe in spanking as an appropriate disciplinary action.

Having been an abused child and a Christian, I take offense to anyone equating a spanking as a disciplinary action from a loving parent to a "beating" resulting from uncontrolled anger, while presenting these two different things as being the same all in my Lord's name.

Ironically, if you read works by Dr. Dobson (as I cannot speak for the rest), you would see the difference in how it is suggested to handle spanking. If you have read even one of his books and all you saw was it promoted the beating of children... well, I am at a loss for words.


I have read Dobson and all the rest. If you notice, the word "christian" is not capitalized. That is done because I don't believe these people to be Christians. You don't hit children. Period. That is violence. You want to talk about keeping violence out of the library, yet will bring it into the home.

There are Christian methods of disciplining in respectful manners. To discipline is to teach. Jesus didn't spank the disciples, he taught them, as we should teach our children. And yes, it does work when you don't beat the lesson into someone but guide and teach instead.

I simply find it a ridiculous argument for any person who is pro-violence toward children to talk about how we should ban written, non-affecting violence in a library.

FWI -
Corporal punishment and its lasting effects
While conducting the meta-analysis, which included 62 years of collected data, Gershoff looked for associations between parental use of corporal punishment and 11 child behaviors and experiences, including several in childhood (immediate compliance, moral internalization, quality of relationship with parent, and physical abuse from that parent), three in both childhood and adulthood (mental health, aggression, and criminal or antisocial behavior) and one in adulthood alone (abuse of own children or spouse).

Gershoff found "strong associations" between corporal punishment and all eleven child behaviors and experiences. Ten of the associations were negative such as with increased child aggression and antisocial behavior. The single desirable association was between corporal punishment and increased immediate compliance on the part of the child.


and
AOLFF.org
Grace-Based Discipline is more about you as a parent than your child. It is about modeling appropriate behavior, being kind and firm, teaching (discipline), correcting (verbally admonishing), respecting and being respected in a way that can only come from relationship. The right relationship you create with your child foreshadows the right relationship your child seeks with his creator.

There are other methods, Theodore, that do not involve hitting, shaming, or a lack of discipline. They are based on the principles of respect toward others, a strong emphasis on teaching, and an important balance of logical and natural consequences. The parent is still alpha and respected, but the fear-based tactics are removed to create a more enriching environment.
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seekingmyLord
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, Lily. I have seen and heard all sorts of ideas on parenting, including ones just like this. I have been a youth group leader in three different churches for several years before I had my own child quite late in life, so I have seen in the short term and long term results of those different parenting methods. From what I have observed, there is a reason that certain parenting methods have withstood the test of time. (My husband even taught a class on Parenting were parents were often court ordered to attend.)

So, it is no surprise to me that whenever someone comes up with a new methodology about how to raise children, he/she always use a study for the one he/she is against. However, all it does for me is set up the question:

Where is the 62 years of collected data proving the new method?

Let's think about this from the other side. How should I view God since He gave me to parents who were abusive? Should I view Him as not loving me, or not having any respect for me? I mean, I certainly did not learn that from my parents, so should I have no respect for Him? Certainly He knew I would be abused, right? So, if a spanking ruins a child, then according to a study out there somewhere I must be really "damaged goods" and have no business raising a child because I most likely will abuse her or at least have temper issues, right? Do you see where this is going? If every parent who was spanked have al these issues then mankind is doomed. Bear with me, studies and statistics can be set up to prove anything a person wants to be proven.

But, there is a deeper issue, Lily. If you consider all spanking as "beating" children, you are discrediting those suffered REAL child abuse. You are basically saying not only is spanking dishonoring the Lord, but that what abused children received is no worse than a spanking...? I cannot even tell you how hurtful this line of thinking would be to a child who has been abused and has not yet healed emotionally from it.
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Lily
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

seekingmyLord wrote:
[color=indigo]Okay, Lily. I have seen and heard all sorts of ideas on parenting, including ones just like this. I have been a youth group leader in three different churches for several years before I had my own child quite late in life, so I have seen in the short term and long term results of those different parenting methods. From what I have observed, there is a reason that certain parenting methods have withstood the test of time. (My husband even taught a class on Parenting were parents were often court ordered to attend.)

So, it is no surprise to me that whenever someone comes up with a new methodology about how to raise children, he/she always use a study for the one he/she is against. However, all it does for me is set up the question:

Where is the 62 years of collected data proving the new method?


Why is the methodology new? I have books in my collection that span the last hundred years, all proposing the same methods, from one child families to entire classrooms. The work has not been discredited. In fact, it has been recieved with open arms.

Quote:
Let's think about this from the other side. How should I view God since He gave me to parents who were abusive? Should I view Him as not loving me, or not having any respect for me? I mean, I certainly did not learn that from my parents, so should I have no respect for Him?


Should you view God as not loving you if you were born with a life-threatening disease? Or in a country that treats women as something shameful?
Or should you be aware that everyone has their own lessons that God has given them, that he put you there for a reason - to take the bad, learn from it, and make the choice to do good?

Quote:
Certainly He knew I would be abused, right? So, if a spanking ruins a child, then according to a study out there somewhere I must be really "damaged goods" and have no business raising a child because I most likely will abuse her or at least have temper issues, right? Do you see where this is going? If every parent who was spanked have al these issues then mankind is doomed. Bear with me, studies and statistics can be set up to prove anything a person wants to be proven.

I can see you read neither link. The chances of having problems is higher when corporal punishment is used. When you hit a child, you do damage them. You let them think that hitting is okay, that hurting someone, because you are bigger, is okay. That is damage, and I do consider adults that do make that choice to bully to be damaged and hurt. Instead of learning from the bad, they pass it on.

Quote:
But, there is a deeper issue, Lily. If you consider all spanking as "beating" children, you are discrediting those suffered REAL child abuse. You are basically saying not only is spanking dishonoring the Lord, but that what abused children received is no worse than a spanking...? I cannot even tell you how hurtful this line of thinking would be to a child who has been abused and has not yet healed emotionally from it.


I am unaware of how you came to that conclusion.
But I will say if you consider spanking to not be hitting, it's only a matter of time before it does cross into abuse that cannot be healed from.
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StellarStory
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am way more liberal about books than some but this is the great thing about NOT banning books. Everyone can find the books they want, hopefully for "free" at their local library. No one should have books they don't want forced on them.

Because tax dollars are used and collections MUST therefore be justified in some ways, the majority, does in a sense rule. We all know potential problems with majority rule but for the most part this particular system does work fairly well.

A book not often checked out might well get discarded. I hate that, when it happens. It's painful to me to have to cull a collection.

I tend to be the one person using that book for reference now and then. Too bad I can't tag it and other items for when they do put them in the used bookstore or something.

About spanking, I'm against it. Due to violence in my childhood, it literally makes me sick. Using alternative methods consistently has lead to very well behaved children who plan to use the same methods.

Where they ever spanked or hit in any way. Yes, a few times. Those were times of extreme danger and few ways to react but they were wrong. I told the kids that it was wrong, why it was wrong and apologized. I think it's important for them to see you can do that, so they can do that.

When I was a kid I was spanked and otherwise hit a great deal before the age of three. As a consequence I am fearful of a raised fist or hand in any room with me. There are other consequences as well.

When I was older such treatment just made me angry, rebellious and more secretive. After the age of eight, I rarely got caught though.
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seekingmyLord
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 5:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Excerpt from the article on the study:
Quote:
In a reply to Gershoff, researchers Diana Baumrind, PhD (Univ. of CA at Berkeley), Robert E. Larzelere, PhD (Nebraska Medical Center), and Philip Cowan, PhD (Univ.of CA at Berkeley), write that because the original studies in Gershoff's meta-analysis included episodes of extreme and excessive physical punishment, her finding is not an evaluation of normative corporal punishment.

"The evidence presented in the meta-analysis does not justify a blanket injunction against mild to moderate disciplinary spanking," conclude Baumrind and her team. Baumrind et al. also conclude that "a high association between corporal punishment and physical abuse is not evidence that mild or moderate corporal punishment increases the risk of abuse."


I did read the links in part, I just did not find much of the information supporting the no-spanking methodology credible. To say there was a study done on spanking while not giving significant consideration of all other influences that bring out anger is not conclusive evidence that spanking has the same effect as abuse or that those who spank will become abusers.

I don't agree that spanking is against God's will, although I agree that the no-spanking methodology is not new and it certainly has been around for long enough to have studies done on it, so: Where is the 62 years of collected data proving the no-spanking method?

I have seen children raised with this no-spanking idea as a child and as an adult and I have rarely been impressed with the results. It certainly did not work out well for a two year old who continually ran into the street no matter what the mother did short of spanking. She and her husband were one of the couples court ordered to attend the Parenting class. I have other such stories, but... I don't think you are open to hearing them.

Anyway, I hope it works well for you.
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Theodore
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 6:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The study does not distinguish between different forms of corporal punishment, or whether the punishment was properly applied (discipline, not a beating when you're mad), or take into account the fact that some kids need corporal punishment more than others (the ones who are most antisocial to start off with). The study is therefore totally worthless as evidence, and this isn't the first time I've seen it misused as same. Naturally, children who are beaten rather than just spanked are going to have problems, as are children who are punished inconsistently. Lump the random beaters in with the spankers and you totally destroy your statistics.

Given, you should never physically hit a child, even for a spanking. That makes for a bad precedent. And you shouldn't use any implement that does more than sting for a minute or two (certainly not one that cuts or bruises), and you should never punish while angry. But is it fair to say that all corporal punishment is bad because some people misuse it? That's like saying that nobody should own a car because some people drive drunk.
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Lily
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Theodore, how do you spank without hitting? I'm genuinely curious. As far as I knew, spanking was hitting with an open hand on some area of the child's body - the buttocks, usually.


And nobody "needs" to be hit. If a child is antisocial, hitting them is not going to make them connect with others, but withdraw more.

Eta: I just got it. Hitting a child with an object is illegal. It is grounds to have your children taken away by CPS.

Yet a book, that proposes this sort of violence would be okay in a library, while a children's book on 9/11 would not.

I'd rather keep the 9/11 book, or Harry Potter, or The Diary Of Anne Frank, and have my children explore violence in a safe environment, instead of having it applied to them. Again, I'm finding it very hypocritical to want to ban safe exploration while applying violence directly to their bodies.
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StellarStory
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've read many times that spanking and such is alright. Indeed I've seen people say it is called for or required for good parenting. "It was done to me, and it straightened me out." "It didn't hurt me none, in fact they shoulda hit me more." are some things I sometimes hear about this. I don't agree.

I don't favor punishment at all. I'm not trying to control my kids, I'm trying to get them to control themselves. I favor consequences. I favor rewards on the one hand along with positive reenforcement (which none of us get enough of IMO) and consequences, (preferably natural ones) on the other hand.

This has worked very well for my kids. They are great, and very well behaved. They are not that way because they fear me but because they know right from wrong due to having consequences for their actions that were either good or bad and which were consistent. Later in life, when I'm not there, they will make better choices than if I "ruled" them through fear and pain.

Corporeal punishment never stopped me from doing anything I wanted past the time of the actual punishment. I remember being spanked and thinking is this it? This won't stop me. I'll go right back to doing what I want to do, only this time they won't catch me. Is that really what you are seeking to create? It's NOT what I am.

When ultra controlled and punished kids get out on their own they are likely to do or try anything because you can't beat who they are inside out of them. You can only get them to suppress it until they have opportunity. This is one reason why college kids who go away to college often go "wild." That can lead to some heartbreaking results including death.

When they get a car, that too can lead to a sort of freedom along with not being watched in which bad choices can be made leading to injury and death.

I've seen people say that you should never spank in anger but calmly. I don't agree.

The only time one should get physical is when one has lost their temper IMO. If you can be calm it should NOT occur at all because you are the adult and you should be able to discern right from wrong. Hitting another person in any way but self defense is wrong in my belief system. The whole being calm and saying you are doing this from a loving place is total BS to me. Again, it makes me angry.

Of course people are going to do what they are going to do. I am not likely to be changing minds here. I know that.

I also know kids are spanked and beaten (yes, I make a distinction between the two) every day, and they have to figure out how to grow up as healthy as they can in spite of it.

Human beings have a remarkable ability to adapt and work for good. I believe most of us, freed of worries such as hunger and shelter will make the right choices. I also believe that kids given, "everything" except consistent enforced limits, are less likely to make the right choices.

Still, it is on each individual to make these choices right or wrong, they and the rest of us have to live with the results.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anything with a large surface area to weight ratio should work fine. A light plastic serving spoon, for instance. Using your hand can promote hitting. One of the other benefits of a light plastic serving spoon is it breaks if you use a lot of force.

I don't know where you're meeting those families, but I would guess that any problems are being caused by overly strict rules and/or a lack of respect for the parents, not the method of enforcement per se. Punishment from someone you don't respect and look up to doesn't mean anything. I've seen lots of bratty kids who haven't been punished at all - the key is to reach a balance between too much punishment and too little.

Quote:
Human beings have a remarkable ability to adapt and work for good. I believe most of us, freed of worries such as hunger and shelter will make the right choices. I also believe that kids given, "everything" except consistent enforced limits, are less likely to make the right choices.


Nobody is naturally good, you learn to be good by following good role models. The middle class are middle class because they're well-behaved, not well-behaved because they're middle class.
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