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Effect on other forms of schooling
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veniceia
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 7:57 pm    Post subject: Effect on other forms of schooling Reply with quote

Effect on other forms of schooling
The growing interest in homeschooling and general desire of parents to move away from the public school system has created a positive effect on the public schools as scholars and politicians seek to improve the flexibility and overall academic levels of public schools. The voucher system, which provides families with tuition credit usable outside the public school system, is one of the outcomes that has been criticized by those opposed to the move away from public schools.
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seekingmyLord
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 4:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am particularly interested in the second paragraph:
Quote:
One of the key points of contention is that public schools provide a common background and platform for holding communities together, especially in terms of integrating immigrants with different customs, religions, and languages. Several plans have been put forth and discussed to diversify teaching methods in schools, under the argument that one method does not work for all.


This is the real challenge as public school has become a key factor within society. In some communities, school events provide the main socialization factor of entire towns for people of all ages, particularly the sports events. Even the girl scouts and boy scouts recruit only at the schools in my area. However, I believe that this attitude within society can also change.

Being a small town girl surrounding by farmland, I have seen some town's people highly dependant on school events. However, it was never the ONLY way for people to come together in town. We had much more widely diversified town celebrations and other culture-related events that involved the neighboring Amish families that never went to public schools. We might have had more of these events or more going on at these events, if it people were not so busy with school scheduled events.

I could be wrong, but I think the homeschool movement is not just about a better education or religion or cultural differences, but a realization that people do not have to rely on the government. I think that society, in general, is beginning to turn away from its dependency on the government. People are beginning to see the results of the government's influence on society's attitude through the public schools as it has access to young minds that accept without questioning, because children go to school at such a young age. By the time a child matures to the point of questioning, he is more pressured to fit in with his peers than holding with family traditions.

The homeschooling movement's greatest achievement is not in producing highly educated independent thinking children who love learning--although that is what is getting every one's attention, which results in what I am about to reveal-- but it causes every family to really consider the choices in education and really examine how public schools are teaching, what they are teaching, what are the political agendas influencing decisions in public education, what kind of environment public schools are providing, and even if we can trust the government to do what is in the best interest of the children or society as a whole.

In my area, we have a very diversified local forum. Every year there is a poll created by someone asking about public school uniforms. Every year the polls shows the majority of the people are in favor of uniforms and every year it is brought up to the BOE and every year it is rejected. If local government is not listening to the people, how can we trust government at the state and federal levels in regards to education?

Granted there are some schools that are excellent, but schools are not on pedestals. Instead, schools have become pillars in society and, for the most part, they are showing stress-related deterioration; they are crumbling.
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Ramona
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

seekingmyLord wrote:
In some communities, school events provide the main socialization factor of entire towns for people of all ages, particularly the sports events. Even the girl scouts and boy scouts recruit only at the schools in my area.


When I was growing up our family's main socialization was through our church, and the fact that for most of my schoolmates it was through school led to me being isolated from them. There were not very many from my school who attended the church, which drew from a much larger geographical area.

Our church does sponsor BSA units, but in the community where we live now the church-sponsored units are avoided by the townspeople who are not church members. They will drive to another town after their sons age out of Cubs because there is no older Scout Troop in town except the one at our church. Go figure!

The chamber of commerce and town board here are constantly battling over whether the old-timers or newcomers in town will "win," whereas if they worked together they could get a lot more done.

I definitely agree, though, that people are better off not relying on government.

Ramona
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janw1256
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 7:11 pm    Post subject: Much needed government Reply with quote

Hi Guys!

I definitely agree that people should not rely so much on the government. But, if they can't turn to the government for help, then where can they turn? Where can children go that have irresponsible parents? Some people don't have supportive families that will take care of them. I mean, not everyone has the option of homeschooling. Not everyone has enough money to go to private school.

I think a major component that has made people more reliant on the government is the breakdown of relationships. Technology like the television, the internet, and video games all contribute to people spending more time alone than engaging in healthy social activities. If anything would help people become less reliant on the government, it would be the healing of families and relationships. Unfortunately, our country is extremely competitive and individualistic driven. Maybe if we would take time to sit back and enjoy life, we'd realize we have a soul, mind, and heart and develop our relationships.

Jan
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Theodore
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 11:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You turn to the community for help, not the government. Local charities put better than 90% of money donated towards useful things, while the government manages less than 50%. It should be fairly obvious that the more money the government takes from you, the less well off the poor and needy are, since you could give significantly less to charity than you're paying in taxes and still come out ahead. And which do you think is going to provide a better atmosphere - a children's home run by the church or a home run by the state? Those are usually your two choices.

No, electronics are not to blame for society's woes. Government redistribution programs are. Computers and video games and so on are just like anything else - you can use them by yourself, or you can use them with other people. Sitting in a corner and reading a book is no more sociable than sitting in a corner and playing Super Mario (though reading the book is probably a lot more educational). Remember that we're sitting at our computers and chatting with one another Smile I personally enjoy strategy / war games, though I never play anything that isn't multiplayer, and I play board games with my brothers and sisters when they are willing to take me on (I almost never lose). My current favorite is Risk 2010.
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seekingmyLord
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 5:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would be asking within my community before going to the government.

It is not that I think that we should do away with a default educational system, it is just that I think there are better ways to run that kind of a system. I am not even going to address the problem within the education system itself, but rather the political use of that powerful little term, "It's for the children" and how politicians are running the education system, using education as a hook to get more money that does not necessarily benefit education.

I currently live in Georgia and in one of the fastest growing counties in the US. We were asking to pass a bond because our most overcrowded schools were going to have to go to double sessions. They continually used that scare tactic on the parents and had two special elections before they finally got it passed--they were very determined to get it passed no matter how many elections it took, (each election costing ten of thousands to set up) and everywhere there were signs "It's for the children." (At the same time we need seven new schools, including one high school, another older high school was getting a brand new auditorium, with monies from a previous bond, built where the tennis courts were and now they need to build new tennis courts that were not covered with that bond? Rolling Eyes)

They told everyone that the new bond would give them money immediately needed. Now, what they failed to tell people is that the bond does not count toward the state tax cap for education. Our county was about four mils below that cap and the BOE could have voted to raise the millage at any time without our approval but they wanted more. As I predicted and warned, within four months of getting the bond passed, the BOE voted to increase the millage rate--after the bond, which is what they had planned all along. (I am now waiting for the BOE to raise their salaries.)

This is not a new tactic. When I lived in Ohio, my senior year was a fiasco due to politics. First the state ran out of money and closed the schools a few weeks before Thanksgiving with plans to reopen in January when money was again available. Then, like the year before, we had the one of the worst winters with blizzards for which we had the snow days, however by the time we could start school again in my rural county, the regular school year would be too short by state law, so we had to go all of June and six Saturdays. On those Saturdays, we legally did not have the attendance we needed to be opened, half the teachers did not even show up. This little political stunt was simply to get the state lottery passed because everyone was told it would go toward education. What we were not told is that it would go in the general fund of which education would get a portion and that after the lottery was passed that portion for education would quietly decrease.

Then I lived in Florida. I was no longer in school, but the wiser about political claims for public schools. They also wanted a state lottery and claimed it would go toward education. My father-in-law does not remember my warning about how the lottery money will most likely go into a general fund and a few years later the schools will have just as much financial woes as they did then, just as they had done in Ohio. He was sure that the lottery would be the answer. Now he is really angry about how they want more money for schools, particularly in his county which is another fast growing county with the same problems as mine.

I will not allow my daughter to be exploited by politicians to make me agree to hand them more money that they will manage with little accountability while educating her with pro-government idea and not educating her about how the government has exploited public school children to get the money with that powerful little saying "it's for the children!"


I would venture to say that most homeschool families make it a priority to exercise their voting rights, so as I see it, the main reason "politicians seek to improve the flexibility and overall academic levels of public schools" is because they don't want to lose their political power/money hook.
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janw1256
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 1:43 pm    Post subject: Government Reply with quote

Hi Y'all!

Sounds like you have quite a fight to pick with the government. Although I see the value in realizing the mistakes the government makes, I do not see the value in blaming so many of life's problems on the government. The government plays a valuable role that we cannot do without. God talks about the importance of the government in Romans 13:1-7. Yes, the government isn't perfect. But, humans aren't perfect, so of course the government is not going to be perfect. I believe that any human in power cannot and will not make it unless they are willinfully deciding to let God control their life.

But, the government makes a lot of mistakes. It is very discouraging to see all of the people out there who just blindly follow the government like it is a god and don't question a single action it makes. But how will fighting the government change all that? The only way to change is for people to get of their butts and take responsibility in life. When we become adults, we are no longer responsible to our parents, but rather God is our main authority. By attacking the government, it is like they have become our parent's again and can take the blame for all the woes in life.

I agree with you, Theodore, about technology not being responsible, but rather how people use it. But, it is discouraging how it is paving the way for a very unsocial, isolated world. That is what I should have said in the first place.

I think that it is useful to realize the mistakes the government makes and to want to change it. The main point I am trying to make is that people are at fault, all people, and sometimes we spend so much time focusing on the government's mistakes, we forget to think about the people behind the government making the mistakes. If we were in their place, we might fall under the same pressure and make the same mistakes. So, I think the best thing to do is to vote and try to impact our world in a way that God has planned for us. Just having healthy relationships with those around us may be God's plan for us. Not every Bible-believing Christian is called to be a politician, which is how I feel some homeschoolers are brought up to be.

Cheers!

Jan Smile
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Theodore
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, individual people are ultimately responsible for letting the government continue doing what it's doing, but that doesn't meant we don't have way too much government. Yes, you do need government for keeping the roads in good condition, enforcing the law, running the military, etc. - basically anything of use to all citizens, not just a few. However, you do not need the federal or state government for social redistribution programs. That's what local government and church organizations are for. The further removed the part of government overseeing the redistribution, the more waste and fraud there will be, and the fact of the matter is that your money can be put to much better use by you than the government. Let's say you only had to pay half the taxes that you do now. You could afford to donate quite a bit - more than would make it through the government - and still come out ahead.

The government is like a person who walks along a street and donates $10 to every homeless person he sees. He doesn't bother to check if the money is being used for drugs or booze, and he doesn't bother to check if each person is in fact homeless. He doesn't care, he's using your money. As long as what he's doing doesn't create a scandal, it's all good.

Local organizations, on the other hand, know who's legitimately down on their luck, and who's just pulling a con. What's more, they know local suppliers and can get several times as much for the same amount of money as the government can (or you can, for that matter). I don't mind donating money, I just want to have a choice as to where it ends up.
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seekingmyLord
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 5:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with Theodore, the larger the government at the state and federal levels, the less accountability there is--I would like to see significant downsizing there. Jan, I also agree with you that we should not blame government, but I think we should fear it a little. I have many concerns about how people desire government to do so much for them, which makes it bigger and more powerful and in need of more money, while not realizing that they are also trading their rights and freedoms away.

This is an extreme comparison, of course, but look what Hitler did with Germany through the use of government and its schools. Even today the Nazi-era law forbidding homeschooling is still in force, government approved education is the only education there. Parents have no parental rights at all when it comes to education. History has shown us what can be done when young minds are influenced with pro-government ideas.

Government schools in the US have more subtle messages that, of course, are for the good of society as a whole. They are careful to maintain appearances of individual rights and freedoms. For instance, we have lost parental rights in schools, but do most parents with children in public school know this? No. In fact, they will even argue that it is absurd and that if there was an incident, the other parents must have done something wrong to cause it. That is the attitude of people who, by the way, were also educated in government schools.

Yes, they are most definitely influencing the children and now there are generations of this influence, people don't even realize it. This influence has been subtly injected over decades. In fact, the educational system doesn't hide what it is doing, but makes it sound like the right thing to do so that the children will fit into society. Getting along with others is one thing, fitting into a society that the educational system has had the greatest influence in creating is quite another.

There is another big problem that comes out of this. Generations of people were educated to depend on the government to tell them their rights and protect their rights both at the same time. This has resulted in people being so trusting of government and ignorant of their own individual rights and the law that they allow government agents to act under the color of law.

I would also like to point out that voting is not really enough. As I said before, I believe that most homeschooling families are dedicated voters who really look into the issues, however the majority of people out there want the information to be handed to them as it was in school, even in this age of information, because people are just too busy living their own lives. People can only vote intelligently when they have all the facts and it is not government's job nor is it in the government's interest to provide us with all the facts. So, these people vote according to the information that falls in front of them, some catchy little saying like "its for the children" is sufficient, and they go with that. Besides we mostly vote on who will represent us, we give them voting rights in our republic form of government, but once the politician is in office, who really watches how he or she votes on every issue?

To loop this back to the OP, if politicians are in favor of alternative educational systems, I tend to believe that they would also want government control over them.
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janw1256
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First, I am going to quote Romans 8: 1-7:
1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. 6This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

Yes, the government may be doing all that you say. However, the main culprit is Satan. So, the only thing we can do is obey God and see what He is trying to do in our lives. I hope that by homeschooling we are following God's plan and not retreating out of schools in fear. Homeschooling is no doubt separating Christians from society and diminishing their impact in our society. How can we impact our society if we don't spend much time in it? How would schools change if Christians came in and tried to change them? How would society change if more Christian kids were in school and got to know kids there and affect them? Is God really telling us to pull out of society b/c it has gotten so nuts? Do we really need to go and hide in our basements?
We need to stop the whole argument over the separation of Church and State. Yes, the government should not be run by the church and has a job of its own, but that doesn't mean that the people in government can't talk about God. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't be allowed to pray in school. That doesn't mean that the Bible should not be followed by the government. We need to penetrate society and stop letting it follow Satan to its doom. Just b/c others believe the lie about the separation of God from life doesn't mean that we have to.
Why are churches building humongous buildings? Why can't we use the church building solely for worship and spend the rest of our time in society? Why do people have to come to us b/f we go to them? Why are we so scared of people? Why can't our children grow up with non-believers and learn to love them? Why are Christians retreating from society? Why aren't we boldly on the front lines anymore?
I mean, so the government lets public schools go to pot and we take our children out of school and out of society in fear. Why are we letting the government have that much control on our lives? Why are Christians falling into cliques within their churches and in society? Why aren't we boldly proclaiming God's love to society anymore? Maybe it is our own fault that society is crumbling so quickly.
Jan Smile
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Calleigh
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since we big, strong adult Christians aren't boldy proclaiming Christ from the mountaintops, how in the WORLD can we expect our kids to? Do we really think that one child will be able to go into the public school system and fight it on their own? When my son was in public school (and this was first grade!) he said something to another student about God and his teacher quickly informed him that, "We aren't allowed to talk about God in school." Now, I didn't know about it at the time; he didn't tell me until the following year after we had started homeshooling. Why didn't he tell me? Because he was afraid. Just afraid of what would happen. My kids have been taught to respect authority and he wasn't about to stand up and proclaim his "rights" to talk about God. Don't think that even teachers don't "bully" sometimes to keep things the way they want them.

So we aren't "hiding" from the public school system or society. I believe that if I raise my children in the Truth and give them the tools they need, they will be an even greater influence when they become adults and are strong enough in themselves and their personal relationship with the Lord. That is my job right now. Their job is to do their school work and to learn and grow. Not to go out and try to change the world at the ripe old age of seven.
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seekingmyLord
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

janw1256 wrote:
First, I am going to quote Romans 8: 1-7:
Yes, the government may be doing all that you say. However, the main culprit is Satan. So, the only thing we can do is obey God and see what He is trying to do in our lives. I hope that by homeschooling we are following God's plan and not retreating out of schools in fear. Homeschooling is no doubt separating Christians from society and diminishing their impact in our society. How can we impact our society if we don't spend much time in it?

Many of the homeschoolers I know are out in society, they just happen to be out there differently that a public school child who is in a classroom most of the day.

janw1256 wrote:
How would schools change if Christians came in and tried to change them?

I think you are much younger than I am, so you were probably don't have any idea how it used to be forty years ago. Then it was becoming less common but there were still some public schools that had a teacher led prayer every morning. Christians had more influence in the public schools then than they have now. The schools have been changing, but not towards anything Christian friendly.

janw1256 wrote:

How would society change if more Christian kids were in school and got to know kids there and affect them?

How would those Christian children be affected if they were in school and got to know children there, and how much impact would they then have on society should they have been changed by it?

janw1256 wrote:
Is God really telling us to pull out of society b/c it has gotten so nuts? Do we really need to go and hide in our basements?

Homeschoolers are IN society. Not all that is society is in public schools.

janw1256 wrote:
We need to stop the whole argument over the separation of Church and State.

Being against reliance on government is not necessarily an issue of separation of church and state.

janw1256 wrote:

Why are churches building humongous buildings? Why can't we use the church building solely for worship and spend the rest of our time in society? Why do people have to come to us b/f we go to them? Why are we so scared of people? Why can't our children grow up with non-believers and learn to love them? Why are Christians retreating from society? Why aren't we boldly on the front lines anymore?

I guess my question would be, why do you see Christians as being so anti-society?

janw1256 wrote:

I mean, so the government lets public schools go to pot and we take our children out of school and out of society in fear. Why are we letting the government have that much control on our lives? Why are Christians falling into cliques within their churches and in society? Why aren't we boldly proclaiming God's love to society anymore? Maybe it is our own fault that society is crumbling so quickly.
Jan Smile

Maybe because people just complain about what everyone else is doing instead of just doing what God is leading them to do...? Think about it. If you have all this desire in your heart to change things, then maybe God put it there and you just need to get out there and do it.
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janw1256
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Guys,

Yes, I think you are right, that adults need to change society before children. But, I guess I see homeschooling as being a somewhat anti-society move by Christian adults.

I mean, if you think about it, once you are married and you have kids, your life starts to revolve a lot around your kids. You hang out with families and talk about your kids a lot. Many parents find their social life at school and get to know families that way. When adults separate themselves from the schooling community, they are separating themselves from a lot of potential relationships.

So, I guess I am wondering, how are the adults on here involved in their community? Do you get to know your neighbors? Do you spend time reaching out to those who aren't part of your church community? Do you get to know the parents at the extra-curricular activities that you take your kids to?

I think that homeschool families do not take into account how many relationships are generated by children. The children in families are usually the ones that reach out to people. They are the ones that get to know the neighbors first. Being a child is a time to grow and get to know lots of people.

No, children should not be expected to change the world. But, they can change you if you let them and they can force you to have a social life, if you let them.

I know that the people who I met in my life with the most problems were ones that either had parents who didn't care about them at all or had parents that were too controlling. I think it takes a lot of care and self-discipline as a homeschool parent to not be too controlling and allow your child to live and be a kid.

Kids have a unique role in life and I don't think it should be denied. So, maybe we should let kids change the world:)


And, I guess that's it for now. Have a beautiful day!

Jan
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ncmom
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

janw1256 wrote:
We need to stop the whole argument over the separation of Church and State.

Being against reliance on government is not necessarily an issue of separation of church and state.

I know this thread isn't about this necessarily but since it was brought up and then quoted to reiterate it I feel like putting in my two cents in too.

Our constitution never says separation of Church and state.
What the first amendment says is:

Amendment 1 - Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression. Ratified 12/15/1791.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

It doesn't say that religion can't be within the state, it says Congress can't make laws limiting free worship of religion. And since the US constitution has this amendment then the 10th amendment does not apply so the individual states shouldn't have any say.
The tenth amendment says:

Amendment 10 - Powers of the States and People. Ratified 12/15/1791.

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

Unfortunately however, people only pull the separation of Church and state play out when it is a Christian religion. Any other religion can do what they want.

Now that we have gotten way off the original topic.

As for HS parents pontentially seperating themselves from society when they pull out of the PS's...well I just don't see it. PS parents have the same ability. They just don't let their kids participate in any of the activities and the parents never come to any of the functions to meet other parents. It can be looked at from both stand points. It is just that when PS parents want an attack stance the first thing they do is pull out socialization and friendships. I don't care who you are or how you educate your child someone is always going to disagree if it isn't their way.

And yes I think some Christians are antisocial. I have found these are the ones who quote the verses about not being worldly. I am a Christian and go to a very conservative church but I don't think that I shouldn't live in the world. There is a huge difference between being in the world and of the world. Everyone has to live in it but you don't have to partake of the things you feel are wrong or immoral. However, you shouldn't make people who aren't Christians feel like outcasts either, how are we, as Christians, supposed to win those souls if we portray ourselves as snobby and standoffish people who can't be approached. If people feel like we think we are better than them then they aren't going to want to be around you and it gives other Christians a bad wrap.

Quote:
Besides we mostly vote on who will represent us, we give them voting rights in our republic form of government, but once the politician is in office, who really watches how he or she votes on every issue?

I am so glad to see this, most people today just say, "Oh we have a democracy" and don't realize our government was set up to be a Republic. In fact most people who come out of the PS don't even know what a Republic is. Our government is to thank for this. They teach it the way they want it slanted in the schools. I graduated, lets just say over 10 years ago, and I have seen a huge increase in how the government pushes their agenda in the PS since then. Fortunately for me my parents raised me to think and have my own ideas and not be afraid of what others think of these ideas. I will fight for what I think is right regardless of what others think of me and this includes my feelings on religion and my feelings on our government (which is my constitutional right that I plan on using to my dying day). This being said I am not going to do anything illegal or immoral but I do think our government (Federal and States) have overstepped their boundaries and not just in education but in a lot of areas. They regularly step on the rights of Americans and very few people stand up and say anything, which I think goes back to fear of retribution.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

janw1256 wrote:
So, I guess I am wondering, how are the adults on here involved in their community? Do you get to know your neighbors? Do you spend time reaching out to those who aren't part of your church community? Do you get to know the parents at the extra-curricular activities that you take your kids to?

Do you have the impression that homeschooling parents are into being locked in our own closets? Laughing

I make a point to bake things periodically and give them to neighbors I just happen to meet and talked with as my daughter and I were out walking a few days before. I can't say that anyone has ever done that for me, I guess it is just too old fashion. Nothing like home-made, fresh-baked goodies to bring a smile on some one's face.

Our church has plenty of community involvement that I think should count and I try to visit or at least call our senior members who are often forgotten by those with children and busy schedules. Also, my daughter plays with children close by in the neighborhood, who go to public school.
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