I think we are defining things differently. In context when we were talking about this subject we were talking about natural consequences not in regards to natural law--which is where your definition is derived, but from natural ramifications. In other words, I don't work so I lose my job. Now, that is not natural in the sense that natural law is at play but it is a natural consequence to your actions, it is logical and rational. Thus, the abusing of a door means you lose access to a door. The abuse of authority is the loss of that authority. So on and so forth.
I would, if I were you, engage in the thought process of natural law in that regards.
Decrease, that example you gave here is called a logical
consequence, not natural.
Humiliation, as a show for others, is neither logical nor natural.
We will agree to disagree. I seriously doubt you would see bullying in my home and would find a wonderful atmosphere of joy and companionship.
........until such a time when a child chooses a path seperate from yours, right? And then the tactics are not joy and companionship, but bullying and winning, as you have demonstrated.
Yes, the false dichotomy of internal versus external pressure. You ask Freud about internal and external pressure and he would say internal. If you asked Pavlov and he would say external. I personally say that both apply. I think you create a false dichotomy here that is irrational.
How is it irrational? By allowing a child to feel, with gentle guidance on how to correct, the problem is taken care of. When they are adults they will be faced many times with making decisions without anyone shaming them if they don't do the right thing. They will have to figure things out on their own, and as young teens they need to be prepared with taking the bulk share of the responsibility to be disciplined. Just as we feed an infant, we eventually have to let them make messes while learning to feed themselves, and then they learn to eat better, and clean up those messes, then make a simple meal, and so on. Discipline is no different. By giving them tools to use and guiding as necessary, we set them up to be responsible adults.
By shaming them unneccessarily and bullying them by withholding basic rights, we force them to retreat and be sneakier so as to not get caught.
Now, as far as Jesus he did embarrass his disciples. Publicly he told rebuked them whether it was Peter when Peter refused to have his feet washed and then wanted his entire body washed. He also focused on the heart issues as well. It was Jesus, as God, who commanded obedience to certain laws (the 10 commandments). They struck a person down when that person, trying to do good, disobeyed by having the ark carried on a cart. As stated over and over again, there is a false dichotomy set up. Obedience is doing what your supposed to do when your supposed to do it with the right heart attitude. That is the definition I have listed three times. No false dichotomy here and it is what i repeat. I do not think you are reading my entire posts as you are attacking me in areas I have already addressed. We strive to win the heart... which is what I have shown here over and over in this text.
Please do not compare the story of Jesus washing Peter's feet to humiliating a child in the living room in front of friends and neighbors. That is highly offensive. Jesus did not rebuke him with the smugness of a parent whose child did wrong and now must "pay", Jesus was attempting to get Peter to understand that he was cleansing the soul.
How you can even compare the two is unimaginable.
Yet, despite what I have said you choose to see the worse in me. I rarely discipline my children. Yet, when I do I am decisive and loving. And, believe it or not, my kids think going out with their dad on our monthly date is the greatest thing in the world... I do not crush them... I build up their character.
I only see what you show.
I discipline my children all the time. It's how we live. To discipline is to teach, and I see no reason to seperate out lessons until they make a mistake. Life is about learning.
We simply don't punish here, and have no need for it. I have no need to hurt my children to see if they still love me.